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Brisbane R2: Murray vs Muller

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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #210 on: January 05, 2012, 11:52 AM »
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Gasquet and Murray both have really nice games to watch, but I cant agree with your comment about natural talent, because how do you define talent? Everyone's definition on this would be different, you could argue that Rafa while he may not be as pretty to watch as some of the others has 10 slams therefore is more talented than anyone on tour right now bar Roger, as this is a results business so surely winning titles is what justifies your talent.

Murray has a shot at it, he needs the right draw, the right people to lose and to shut out the voices he doesnt need to hear if all that happens then you never know he could get some destiny on his side.

Novak is Roger's biggest concern but then again Novak is the favourite to take out the whole event, but the guy most likely to stop him from what we have seen in the majors over the last 12 months is Roger.
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #211 on: January 05, 2012, 11:57 AM »
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What a load of tripe. Dream on
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craighateslife
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #212 on: January 05, 2012, 12:00 PM »
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By natural talent I mean touch, feel, soft hands and having the variety to change your game to each opponent.
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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #213 on: January 05, 2012, 12:03 PM »
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What a load of tripe. Dream on

Err ok someone got out of bed on the wrong side oh dear, no it is not tripe it is fact Djokovic did win 3 majors last year! his one loss in a major was to Roger, have a look at some tennis history then get back to me when you know your stuff.
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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #214 on: January 05, 2012, 12:04 PM »
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By natural talent I mean touch, feel, soft hands and having the variety to change your game to each opponent.

I appreciate your definition, and to be fair Murray Roger and Gasquet do all of those things bvery well and are highly skilled at them.

But I would ask that without the major titles does your definition of talent count for anything?

That is why to me winning titles and maximising your potential is talent.
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craighateslife
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #215 on: January 05, 2012, 12:17 PM »
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I appreciate your definition, and to be fair Murray Roger and Gasquet do all of those things bvery well and are highly skilled at them.

But I would ask that without the major titles does your definition of talent count for anything?

That is why to me winning titles and maximising your potential is talent.

OK that's fair but time is still on Andy's side and having watched the like of Mauresmo and Schiavone
the cream will always rise one day.
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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #216 on: January 05, 2012, 12:52 PM »
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OK that's fair but time is still on Andy's side and having watched the like of Mauresmo and Schiavone
the cream will always rise one day.

Fair point time will tell, Murray has the ability to win a major, time will tell if he does, but i personally feel he has more than enough time and chances still to do it at some stage!
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LIBANY
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #217 on: January 05, 2012, 01:13 PM »
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Speech is silver (or sometimes lead) but the silence is golden.
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theycanbillme
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #218 on: January 05, 2012, 01:40 PM »
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That's absurd,
If Nadal is in Rogers half he will get his rump soundly booted as he did last week. To say its always on his racquet is a ridiculous and deluded statement.
Federer has beaten Nadal only once outdoors on the hard.
Oh yes I knew that post of mine would get you all excited.
Don't repeat Federer's achievements yet again please, we all know about his precious 16 slams etc
But regardless of how you spin it, most of them were in a weak era. Not comparable to now or the prior era. I'm sorry but Safin, Hewitt, Roddick and Phillipoussis are not comparable to Becker Lendl Sampras Agassi etc.
Or later Federer Novak Murray Nadal etc.
Federer would never have won anything like 16 slams had he been either 5 years younger or older. He was lucky.
So what Del Potro has managed to grab one, does anyone seriously think he is more talented than Andy?
I doubt even Del Potro does, although clearly he has so far demonstrated a better big match temperament.
I wasn't just making an excuse about Murray being immature. It is a common sense observation; something which it appears the more extreme Fed fans have difficulty making. Yes Murray played brilliantly in the quarter finals against the then number one Nadal at the AO, and played pretty well against Cilic too.
But he did not play remotely as well in that final, he couldn't even serve over 50%. It had little to do with how well Roger was playing as there was no resistance from Murray so Roger was allowed to play his game. Murray obviously couldn't handle the pressure. If you're trying to suggest Otherwise in order to big up Roger ie Murray beat Nadal Roger beat Murray therefore Federer is better than both, that's up to you. But it is poor reasoning to say the least and not based on what actually happened.
The occasion clearly got to Murray as it did last year against Novak and Murray did not play at his best and that is a FACT.
I mean, what do you think we talk about here all the time?
Do you suppose to tell us what's what about our favourite player who we have watched for years?
Think again AK400.
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blueberryhill
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #219 on: January 05, 2012, 01:49 PM »
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Why am I on a forum for Andy Murray and all ak400 goes on about is Roger Federer?

craighateslife: I can only assume that MW is the best tennis site on the planet and fans on MW are far better informed and have much better discussions than any fans on any Federer site anywhere. There is no other explanation for a Federer fan to be here, is there Shrug
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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #220 on: January 05, 2012, 01:58 PM »
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That's absurd,
If Nadal is in Rogers half he will get his rump soundly booted as he did last week. To say its always on his racquet is a ridiculous and deluded statement.
Federer has beaten Nadal only once outdoors on the hard.
Oh yes I knew that post of mine would get you all excited.
Don't repeat Federer's achievements yet again please, we all know about his precious 16 slams etc
But regardless of how you spin it, most of them were in a weak era. Not comparable to now or the prior era. I'm sorry but Safin, Hewitt, Roddick and Phillipoussis are not comparable to Becker Lendl Sampras Agassi etc.
Or later Federer Novak Murray Nadal etc.
Federer would never have won anything like 16 slams had he been either 5 years younger or older. He was lucky.
So what Del Potro has managed to grab one, does anyone seriously think he is more talented than Andy?
I doubt even Del Potro does, although clearly he has so far demonstrated a better big match temperament.
I wasn't just making an excuse about Murray being immature. It is a common sense observation; something which it appears the more extreme Fed fans have difficulty making. Yes Murray played brilliantly in the quarter finals against the then number one Nadal at the AO, and played pretty well against Cilic too.
But he did not play remotely as well in that final, he couldn't even serve over 50%. It had little to do with how well Roger was playing as there was no resistance from Murray so Roger was allowed to play his game. Murray obviously couldn't handle the pressure. If you're trying to suggest Otherwise in order to big up Roger ie Murray beat Nadal Roger beat Murray therefore Federer is better than both, that's up to you. But it is poor reasoning to say the least and not based on what actually happened.
The occasion clearly got to Murray as it did last year against Novak and Murray did not play at his best and that is a FACT.
I mean, what do you think we talk about here all the time?
Do you suppose to tell us what's what about our favourite player who we have watched for years?
Think again AK400.

Nadal has a good record against Roger he is a southpaw and his game against Roger's backhand that is tough but I always still feel that Roger being the more attacking player holds all the aces when they play, look at 2009 Nadal started that season in Australia playing at his best like he had been in 2008 and he still needed 5 sets to beat Roger who played a terrible 5th sets that day.

The argument about weak era isnt really justified because the guys you mention in trying to call the last decade weak are all very talented players the reason they havent won multiple slams is because Roger was winning them you cant win every slam if one guy wins them all, at the end of their careers we saw Roddick on 1 Slam, Hewitt one 2 Philippousis 0 and but in reality Roger stopped a lot of guys from being multiple slam winers and having great careers.

I agree that Nadal and Novak are great players you win multiple major tounrmanets you deserve to be called that Murray hasnt won a major he has come close but he isnt at present a threat to Roger's chances in the big events.

To say he froze or whatever is pretty lame for his 2nd major final and then what about last year against Djokovic? I am guessing he froze yet again? Even Roger felt Murray has a chance because he was facing Djokovic and not Roger himself but the problem is Murray gets to major finals with his defensive style of play, and that is fine he will win matches playing that way no question but you put him against a great player in form in the final say Roger or Novak and they are not going to give you sloppy errors in a Grand Slam final, you have to go out and beat them, Murray has not been able to do that.

Greatness is about majors, Del Potro was able to beat Nadal and Federer and win his very 1st major final so the excuses for Murray being over rawed when hes had a few goes at it seem a bit strange for a guy who has ambitions to be a multiple slam winner.

As I said talent is subjective but I am pretty sure Murray would swap everything he has done for Del Potro's US Open title. If they both retired today then Del Potro has had the better career. Murray has had the better consistency no question but Del Potro has a major that is what defines greatness consistency defines being a very good and solid player but not a great one.
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michelle
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #221 on: January 05, 2012, 02:05 PM »
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 yuk zz vomit duh Boo hoo!
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #222 on: January 05, 2012, 02:14 PM »
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Great Michelle I could not have expressed it any better
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ak400
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #223 on: January 05, 2012, 02:23 PM »
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yuk zz vomit duh Boo hoo!

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theycanbillme
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Re: Brisbane International R2: Murray vs Muller « Reply #224 on: January 05, 2012, 03:13 PM »
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You're not getting it AK400,
Murray did freeze and he did under perform. Twice.
And how can you say he had a better chance against last years Novak than against Roger who hasn't won a slam since? I doubt even Roger is that delusional, he's certainly not stupid enough to say it publicly.
You've said it yourself here about Murrays propensity to crumble in slam finals. Part of that crumbling is happening before he gets on court resulting in a very defensive non proactive style of play when he does and for the record, Murray normally makes more winners and is away from the baseline more often than both Nadal and Djokovic.
I don't care whether it's perceived as 'lame excuse' by you. It doesn't change the observation I was making which the truth. It can be looked at statistically also but it was obvious to absolutely everyone excepting the most extreme triumphalistic Federer fans. I'm not doing it to diminish Rogers win either,
A win is a win when all is said and done, on that day he probably would have won anyway. Although I am certain it is a win he would not have got had Murray not taken Nadal out in the quarters.
Also a 'lame excuse' in my book is when you suggest that the reason Nadal so clearly dominates Roger is due to Rafa being left handed, ha-ha.
Maybe he's just a better player, certainly Roger has failed to adapt to Nadal's challenge in all this time.
What else, oh yes the whole Rafa taking 5 sets to beat Roger, you do know he took 5 hours to beat Verdasco just before dont you?
Oh but Roger 'played terrible' in the fifth?
Isn't that what you would class as a 'lame excuse' AK?
Under the circumstance I'm afraid I would have to as well, as he was better rested and should have been able to sustain his level for a final set, maybe he was simply dominated by Nadal by that time and folded, again.
Although I will say that when Federer lost against Del Potro at the USO... well that was on his racquet that time but he somehow found a way to lose.
You have this strange way of posting as if everything is frozen in time.
I think it's common trait for Rogers fans as that's where his glory days are to be found.
The past might be frozen (although perspective on the past isn't) but the future is not.
Murray has time, Del Potro has time, Federer has less.
So I doubt Murray would also give up all of his prior achievements just to be a one slam wonder. Which may yet happen to Delpo, who has yet to win a masters title (again indicating that the stars aligned for him in NY), but I hope it doesn't. He was an exception however and a bit lucky getting one in early. But it ain't over yet. Murray shall get his when he's ready. Delpo will get his next one when hes ready too, as lightening rarely strikes twice in sport and one usually has to be more than lucky & reasonably well prepared.
I suppose you think that Ferrero will go down like Delpo as a better player than Murray if he retired tomorrow as he's been Number 1 and won a slam also? I'm sorry but that is a crass argument and simply not the truth.
And I do hope for your sake that you are not going to try and tell any of us here that the early Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero etc era was in any way comparable to the other eras I outlined because that's just silly and really you're embarrassing yourself to even try.
Sampras = Roddick etc, give me a break.
It was a weak era because there was only one decent player competing with no competition and that is why he cleaned up. Again this is obvious stuff.
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