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Author Topic: Murray's Ranking  (Read 156037 times)
Joe
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4380 on: August 20, 2010, 04:24 PM »
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I think the confusion occurs when the ATP computer shows points not dropping off until after a tournament ends (unless the tournament has moved significantly within the calendar, say just a week or so), but for the purposes of (for example) Yamor's prediction spreadsheets, points are taken off at the start of the tournament to make it clearer where all the results will place people afterwards.

I think that's it, anyway. Shrug
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Philip
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4381 on: August 20, 2010, 04:30 PM »
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The fact that the points stay for 52 weeks helped Andy this year at the Roger's cup to stay 4th in the ranking although this would not affect the seeding which was determined a few weeks earlier.  

Andy was defending 1000 points earned from winning Montreal last year.  If it dropped off at the beginning of the Toronto Roger's cup then Andy's ranking would have significantly dropped before coming back up to 4th after winning Toronto Very Happy.  That would have been a blip in his CV.  He can boast staying in the top 4 for  (Hmmm... how many weeks is it now Smile ? )
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E_Dundas
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4382 on: August 20, 2010, 04:36 PM »
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Thank you so much! It all makes so much more sense now!! Now there's even more insentive for Andy to do well in New York....to overtake that arse Federer. Has Andy ever been ranked above him? I don't think he has, that would be incredible!
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Daisy
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4383 on: August 20, 2010, 04:40 PM »
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Quote from: Daisy on August 20, 2010, 04:11 PM
I thought tournament points dropped off at the start of each tournament ??


The South African Airways ATP Rankings period is the immediate past 52 weeks, except for:
(i) The Barclays ATP World Tour Finals, which is dropped on the Monday following the last regular-season ATP event of the following year;

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx
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Joe
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4384 on: August 20, 2010, 04:41 PM »
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Quote from: Philip on August 20, 2010, 04:30 PM
The fact that the points stay for 52 weeks helped Andy this year at the Roger's cup to stay 4th in the ranking although this would not affect the seeding which was determined a few weeks earlier. 

Andy was defending 1000 points earned from winning Montreal last year.  If it dropped off at the beginning of the Toronto Roger's cup then Andy's ranking would have significantly dropped before coming back up to 4th after winning Toronto Very Happy.  That would have been a blip in his CV.  He can boast staying in the top 4 for  (Hmmm... how many weeks is it now Smile ? )

Will be two years by the end of the USO I think. Pretty sure he was ranked 6th before USO '08 and 4th after the final. Think
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Clydey
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4385 on: August 20, 2010, 04:44 PM »
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Quote from: Joe on August 20, 2010, 04:41 PM
Will be two years by the end of the USO I think. Pretty sure he was ranked 6th before USO '08 and 4th after the final. Think

You'd be right.

I assume you lot are talking about finishing the year 4th for 2 years running? He's dropped out of the top 4 at least once during the season in that time.
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Philip
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4386 on: August 20, 2010, 04:49 PM »
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Thanks Joe & James.  E_Dundas was asking how Andy can overtake Federer and Djokovic to move up to 3rd or 2nd by year end and about how the ranking system works.
[ Last edit by Philip August 22, 2010, 10:05 AM ] IP Logged
bhill_mfc
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4387 on: August 20, 2010, 05:27 PM »
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I think its reasonable to assume there will be a change or 2 in the rankings over the next 3 months Wink
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E_Dundas
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4388 on: August 21, 2010, 06:48 PM »
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 If Andy doesn't get injured or have another major slump anytime soon, there are lots of oppurtunities for him to rise up the rankings, very few points to defend after the USO and then after the Australian Open there are barely any until Wimbledon, so maybe that slump earlier in the year was a good thing after all! (maybe)
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Yamor
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4389 on: August 22, 2010, 05:14 AM »
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It's a common mistake that. The fact you have few points to defend is not in any way an advantage in not doing well. It's a bit like saying "oh, I didn't win my first slam this year - that's good, it gives me a chance to win my first one next year".

The advantage there seems to be is an illusion. Say you're battling it out with player X in the rankings - it appears to be an advantage having done badly the year before, because there's now more to gain. But you have to realise that if you'd have done well the year before, your point total would already have been higher: say you gain 1000 points by doing better this year then last - you would have had that for the whole past year if you'd have done as well the previous year!
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Yamor
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4390 on: August 22, 2010, 05:26 AM »
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Concerning ranking changes at the US Open, chances are Andy needs to win the thing to go up in the rankings.
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Philip
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4391 on: August 22, 2010, 10:09 AM »
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Quote from: Yamor on August 22, 2010, 05:14 AM
It's a common mistake that. The fact you have few points to defend is not in any way an advantage in not doing well. It's a bit like saying "oh, I didn't win my first slam this year - that's good, it gives me a chance to win my first one next year".

The advantage there seems to be is an illusion. Say you're battling it out with player X in the rankings - it appears to be an advantage having done badly the year before, because there's now more to gain. But you have to realise that if you'd have done well the year before, your point total would already have been higher: say you gain 1000 points by doing better this year then last - you would have had that for the whole past year if you'd have done as well the previous year!

Thanks Yamor. That is good to know and I agree with you.

The one occasion where not doing well the previous year really helped is Wimbledon this year.  Nadal was injured so had 0 point last year but won this year so he gained 2000 points.  Federer won last year but lost in the QF so lost 1640 points. This gave a massive point swing of 3640 points and almost mean that Federer will never catch up again with Nadal with his dodgy body unless Nadal's dodgy knees give up.  

It must be so frustrating for Federer to be just 1 week short of Sampras all time record at #1 in the world.
[ Last edit by Philip August 22, 2010, 11:22 AM ] IP Logged
Yamor
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4392 on: August 22, 2010, 10:54 AM »
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Not really. Say Nadal had played last year, and say had got to the final, while Federer still won. Nadal would have had 1200 extra points for a whole year, and wouldn't have been any worse after this year's Wimbledon when he'd have won it. There wouldn't have been such a large swing - but only because Nadal would have already had much more points!
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Philip
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4393 on: August 22, 2010, 11:24 AM »
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Good point. 
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Philip
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Re: Ranking next week... « Reply #4394 on: August 23, 2010, 08:07 PM »
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As I was showering today, I realised something for tennis players who want to earn lots of bonus $ at the USO.

It is to play one or two more 250 ATP tournament than just the two mandatory MS (Canada & Cincinnati).

This year, Federer has earned the most ranking points (1600) with 1 win and 1 final during the US hard court season run up to the USO.  So he should be top of the tree to earn bonus $ right ?  

.........   Wrong lol !

     Fed              
1) Toronto Final (Lost to Andy)        = 600 points;     70 USO race points
2) Cincinnati Winner (beating Fish) = 1000 points;   100 USO race points
==================================================
                                                          1600 rank pts; 170 USO race points

Andy
1) LA Final                              = 150 points;     45 USO race points
2) Toronto Winner (Beat Fed)= 1000 points;   100 USO race points
3) Cincinnati QF (lost to Fish) =   180 points;     25 USO race points
==================================================
                                               1330 rank pts; 170 USO race points

Fish is on 140 USO race points and can take 1st place if he reaches the New Haven final (170 + 45 = 215 points)

Andy leads the USO race because of better head to head compared to Federer (same amount of race points), even though he has earned fewer ranking points compared to Federer.

What is fascinating is the LA 250 ATP tournament.  Even though it only got him 150 ranking points,  it offers him a whopping 45 USO race points;  effectively triple its value.  If players play two 250 ATP tournaments, they can easily (because the big players don't compete here) earn a shed load of USO race points.

The first place player in the USO series race earns a bonus $1m if he wins the USO !  The second place player in the race earns a mere $0.5m bonus if he wins the USO.

http://www.usopen.org/en_US/news/articles/2010-08-11/201008111281538153829.html

One fascinating scenario that I don't think can happen is what happens if Fish, Andy and Fed have exactly the same race points total and they all beat each other once, i.e. Andy beat Fed who beat Fish who beat Andy
[ Last edit by Philip August 23, 2010, 08:29 PM ] IP Logged
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