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Question: What will andys ranking be @ end 2014?
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Murray's Ranking

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Elena
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6420 on: August 20, 2013, 12:04 PM »
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I see Andy has been given 0 points for Washington - don't think he entered did he?

I can only presume it is because it looks like he will fail to fulfill the 4 x 500 tournament requirement as he hasn't played any this year and there are only two more chances. If it is a penalty he can't replace the 0 points with another tournament for 12 months. Nadal has 150 points he can't count from Vina del Mar this year because he got 0 point penalties for Valencia and Beijing last year as he didn't play enough 500s. All sort of makes sense within the ATP rules.

But assuming Andy will play Tokyo again, he could also do Basel or Valencia in October,  and MC can count as a 500. Davis Cup World Group play offs can also count apparently (though it's only 5 points per win!) So that would be 4 x 500. It will be interesting to see if the 0 points for Washington stays if he does play all those.

http://www.daviscup.com/en/rankings/atp-ranking-points.aspx
From 2009 onwards, players participating in World Group or World Group play-off ties will earn ATP ranking points, according to the tables below.

a) Accumulated points for all Davis Cup play over the preceding 52-week period will count as one result and form part of the ATP World Tour 500 category, the best of which count towards a player’s ranking.

I don't think he can count any points he might win in Bangkok unless he has played 4 x 500s
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Ruthie
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6421 on: August 20, 2013, 12:07 PM »
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blimey one needs a ph.d to understand the atp ranking rules Elena  confused
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Elena
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6422 on: August 20, 2013, 12:35 PM »
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blimey one needs a ph.d to understand the atp ranking rules Elena  confused

I quite enjoy the challenge - but I've never really looked in to how Davis Cup affects things before, as it was never relevant to Andy.
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dex
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6423 on: August 20, 2013, 03:02 PM »
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The 0 points will stay on for a full year as it is a penalty.
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teejay1
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6424 on: August 20, 2013, 03:31 PM »
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blimey one needs a ph.d to understand the atp ranking rules Elena  confused

I have to confess that I've read Elena's post twice now, and I still don't get it - it isn't you Elena, I find the rules very confusing!

Just a stupid thought as well, why would Andy not play the necessary amount of 500s if you can be penalised for it? Does that happen much? I knew there were requirements under the ranking rules, but they've never been quite clear to me.
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dex
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6425 on: August 20, 2013, 04:28 PM »
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The 0 for Washington was awarded because he cannot make the mandatory four 500's. He has Monte Carlo, which counts as a 500 (2013) only right now. Tokyo drops off in October. So he would have to play in three 500 events before the year is out, and althouth there is four 500's left he could only possible play in two as the first two run concurrently, then the final two run concurrently.

He will probably play Tokyo and Valencia, but that will only make up 3 x 500's ie 1 short.
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Ruthie
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6426 on: August 20, 2013, 04:56 PM »
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well I guess he and Lendl must have decided it was better to carry a penalty than chase another 500 tournament when it didn't fit his schedule.  But come to think of it I don't understand how a penalty works.  I'm sure someone must have explained it at some point but it's in one ear and out the other with this atp system with me  doh
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benniebone
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6427 on: August 20, 2013, 05:36 PM »
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Goodness me how complicated can the points system get? Elena your explanation sounds great but I don't fully understand it but I've copied it and shall await events and hope it becomes clearer eventually
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tamila
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6428 on: August 21, 2013, 06:23 AM »
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Could someone explain why the cut off points for the race keeps changing?
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teejay1
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6429 on: August 21, 2013, 07:11 AM »
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They change through the year Tamila. As the year goes on, the cut off points lower. Apparently Smile.
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tamila
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6430 on: August 21, 2013, 10:18 AM »
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They change through the year Tamila. As the year goes on, the cut off points lower. Apparently Smile.

The last change seems to have become greater.
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benniebone
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6431 on: August 21, 2013, 11:43 AM »
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The cut off point for the qualification into the 02 tournament in London gradually changes to take in the top 8 players plus a substitute or 2 So far ,I think only Djokovic and Nadal  have qualified Murray surely will do so at the USOpen.
 I'm interested to see if Federer makes it this time 02 will be disappointed if he does'nt
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Elena
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6432 on: August 21, 2013, 01:15 PM »
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Goodness me how complicated can the points system get? Elena your explanation sounds great but I don't fully understand it but I've copied it and shall await events and hope it becomes clearer eventually

I don't fully understand it either! I was just querying whether the DC WG play off counts as a 500 tournament or not. Looking at what's happened with other players I think probably not, so agree with Dex - the 0 point penalty is because Andy will be at least one 500 short and will stay on for a year. Sorry if I've confused people!

Ruthie - top 30 players have to play in 4 x 500 tournaments (MC can be included for some reason, and one has to be after US Open) in order to count the 6 best results from any 500 and 250s. I think it used to be rigidly that 4 x 500 and 2 x 250 were counted, but I'm not sure. If you look at the rankings breakdown of lots of players below the top few, they have played enough 500s, but gained more points from 250s. Gasquet is a good example
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Richard-Gasquet.aspx?t=rb  (Edit to include correct link!)

Any extra points beyond the top 6 go into "non-countable" but these can be moved around at any time to replace others that are lower or drop off etc. Ferrer had a couple of 250 wins in his non-countables earlier this year, which came in handy when he didn't defend his points at Barcelona and elsewhere.

The 0 point penalty is really only relevant if a player has extra points from other tournaments, as the penalty stays in force for a year and can't be replaced by a better result elsewhere. Djoko and Andy don't have any extra, so it doesn't really make any difference at the moment. Nadal and Fed both had point penalties at the end of last year and have just a few points they can't count at the moment - not enough to make any difference to anything though.

If Andy plays more 500s next year he may not be able to count all the points from them immediately - I think he can replace his 90 points from MC if he scores more elsewhere (including Bangkok). If he doesn't play more tournaments the penalty won't make much difference!

Hope that makes some sense!

The rules are all here, and explain when the 0 point penalty is given.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx

Re the O2 qualification cut-off - they must work out how the remaining points available can be divided as the tournaments go by, and at which point a player can't drop below 8 before the WTF. The more points Nadal wins, the fewer there are for anyone else!
[ Last edit by Elena August 21, 2013, 06:56 PM ] IP Logged
Apollo
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6433 on: August 21, 2013, 02:32 PM »
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I think each player must have someone on their team to keep track of what they need schedule and point wise.  Let's face it, with all the player must do just to be match fit, when would they have time to even think about this.
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laundry
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Re: Murray's Ranking « Reply #6434 on: August 21, 2013, 05:04 PM »
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The 0 point penalty is of no consequence to Andy as he usually doesn't play enough tournaments to have un-countables in the total, and if he did he would only be losing some low scoring results where he went out early anyway which would make no difference to his ranking total.

Basically Andy will not care about any 0-point penalties at all, and he certainly won't let them alter his desired scheduling in any way.

Right now his 0 points at the French Open are still being counted towards his ranking total, he could play any tournament he likes extra to his scheduling last year and any points he gets there would count instead of that 0. He could then play another extra tournament whichever he liked and it would still be counted, only the 10 points he got at Rome would be dropped then. If he decided to play another extra tournament (being 3 in total which I really don't see happening) only then might the 0-pointer actually start to affect his total and even then it probably wouldn't be much  - as it would only replace the lowest score out of all the tournaments he played below a masters 1000 (the 500, 250, 125 etc events).
[ Last edit by laundry August 21, 2013, 07:43 PM ] IP Logged
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