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The Murray and Djokovic Era?

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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #105 on: October 26, 2012, 04:26 PM »
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When? When have Soderling or Berdych ever beaten one of the top 4 when the top 4 player has been at their best?

So I guess when these best players see their losses to these players be it Soderling or Berdych, it's because they weren't at thier best after all. How convinent, really.

Since 2009, Berdych and Federer are 4 all and in GS, Berdych is 2-1 vs Federer. And he came very, very close to win their AO encounter as well but choked it away. This is prime Berdych we are talking about therefore, one cannot take the results from the time before.

And Soderling happens to be the only guy who took a prime Nadal out in 4 sets at RG in 2009 just like Krajicek did in 1996, when he took the King of Grass out in straight fashion. The supposedly GOAT player couldn't do it year in year out. Even a very prime Nole was ousted by Nadal at this year's RG. Same Soderling took Federer out of RG in 2010 as well. In fact, he was the only player who was able to take these two top players out of RG, who otherwise ruled that surface, in succession. But I guess neither was at their best in cases - just like Federer was probably never at his best against Berdych.  Rolling Eyes This sort of worshipping of the top players are always beyond me.

Again, the argument is not about who has the absolute authority over whom, but who is capable of taking these players out one time or another even when they are at their best.
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michelle
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #106 on: October 26, 2012, 04:45 PM »
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:
So I guess when these best players see their losses to these players be it Soderling or Berdych, it's because they weren't at thier best after all. How convinent, really.

Since 2009, Berdych and Federer are 4 all and in GS, Berdych is 2-1 vs Federer. And he came very, very close to win their AO encounter as well but choked it away. This is prime Berdych we are talking about therefore, one cannot take the results from the time before.

And Soderling happens to be the only guy who took a prime Nadal out in 4 sets at RG in 2009 just like Krajicek did in 1996, when he took the King of Grass out in straight fashion. The supposedly GOAT player couldn't do it year in year out. Even a very prime Nole was ousted by Nadal at this year's RG. Same Soderling took Federer out of RG in 2010 as well. In fact, he was the only player who was able to take these two top players out of RG, who otherwise ruled that surface, in succession. But I guess neither was at their best in cases - just like Federer was probably never at his best against Berdych.  Rolling Eyes This sort of worshipping of the top players are always beyond me.

Again, the argument is not about who has the absolute authority over whom, but who is capable of taking these players out one time or another even when they are at their best.

Shrug duh
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TheMadHatter
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #107 on: October 26, 2012, 04:52 PM »
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I think we have different opinions of what their "best" means, so there's little point in carrying on this conversation.
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #108 on: October 26, 2012, 05:17 PM »
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I don't think that the problem is there at all. People generally hate Federer and Berdcyh here to the point that they sometimes lose their objectivity and miss the whole point of the argument. That’s why some are having problems dealing with at the mere suggestion that Berdych might just be a bigger threat to Andy at his best than Nole at his best. After all, Berdcych’s results vs Federer in Slams are better than Andy’s and Berdych is a mental case himself. Can’t just be so convenient and make a strong case for Andy only when it comes to mental aspect of things.  Federer, even at the end of his career was able to get the best of Andy and you can’t simply say that Andy was still suffering from mental problems, when the support was all there all the way. This feels like babysitting rather than accepting the fact. This however does not mean that Andy at his best will always lose to Federer at this best, I don't believe it at all, but the problem is, we have no other way of proving it, as it hasn’t happened in a Major yet.

For example, we always take Andy’s win over Raonic at the Open more seriously because it was a much bigger occasion and we always tend to say that, so what Roanic leads the H2H, Andy still has the bigger win over him. But then we change our tune when it comes to Federer in GSs when the cases are pretty much the same. Raonic is still a kid and inexperienced so that goes in his favour too. Can’t be so blind and biased.

Since I originated the discussion, I know what I meant but if some have problems understanding it, then it's a different issue. Best doesn’t mean that you are a robot but it means that you are free of injuries and are able to put forward your best game. But by 'best' you mean what I think you mean, then no one beats no one at their best at the top level and that's frankly impossible, becasue all the fans of other players will argue back as well. For example, Federer fans will never admit that Nadal is his No. 1 rival. They have their excuses as well and it often goes back to Fed'd one handed backhand, which is apparently not good enough in these day and age, and the fact that, Nadal is basically the greatest clay court player of all time and so on. All rubbish and baised garbage opinions.
[ Last edit by Emma Jean October 26, 2012, 05:21 PM ] IP Logged
michelle
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #109 on: October 26, 2012, 05:43 PM »
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I don't think that the problem is there at all. People generally hate Federer and Berdcyh here to the point that they sometimes lose their objectivity and miss the whole point of the argument. That’s why some are having problems dealing with at the mere suggestion that Berdych might just be a bigger threat to Andy at his best than Nole at his best. After all, Berdcych’s results vs Federer in Slams are better than Andy’s and Berdych is a mental case himself. Can’t just be so convenient and make a strong case for Andy only when it comes to mental aspect of things.  Federer, even at the end of his career was able to get the best of Andy and you can’t simply say that Andy was still suffering from mental problems, when the support was all there all the way. This feels like babysitting rather than accepting the fact. This however does not mean that Andy at his best will always lose to Federer at this best, I don't believe it at all, but the problem is, we have no other way of proving it, as it hasn’t happened in a Major yet.

For example, we always take Andy’s win over Raonic at the Open more seriously because it was a much bigger occasion and we always tend to say that, so what Roanic leads the H2H, Andy still has the bigger win over him. But then we change our tune when it comes to Federer in GSs when the cases are pretty much the same. Raonic is still a kid and inexperienced so that goes in his favour too. Can’t be so blind and biased.

Since I originated the discussion, I know what I meant but if some have problems understanding it, then it's a different issue. Best doesn’t mean that you are a robot but it means that you are free of injuries and are able to put forward your best game. But by 'best' you mean what I think you mean, then no one beats no one at their best at the top level and that's frankly impossible, becasue all the fans of other players will argue back as well. For example, Federer fans will never admit that Nadal is his No. 1 rival. They have their excuses as well and it often goes back to Fed'd one handed backhand, which is apparently not good enough in these day and age, and the fact that, Nadal is basically the greatest clay court player of all time and so on. All rubbish and baised garbage opinions.
Oh for goodness sake EJ give it a rest, really had enough, you have your opinion and others have theirs so leave it at that. WHY YOU HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING YOUR OPINION AND ARGUMENT IS BEYOND ME.
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Sabine
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #110 on: October 26, 2012, 05:59 PM »
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Oh for goodness sake EJ give it a rest, really had enough, you have your opinion and others have theirs so leave it at that. WHY YOU HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING YOUR OPINION AND ARGUMENT IS BEYOND ME.

Agreed Michelle, I am getting a bit irritated too...
Just forget about this discussion Emma.
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #111 on: October 26, 2012, 06:36 PM »
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"Berdych is a bigger threat for Andy than Nole simply because Berdych at his best is no joke and is very problematic for Andy’s game. "


Not sure I follow your reasoning here EJ. Are you suggesting Nole at his best is a joke? Berdych has been at his best and has never won a slam, has reached only 1 slam final. Nole has been at his best and has beat Fed and Nadal in slams, and Muzz in a slam final. Nole has a 9-7 H2H with Andy and Berd a 4-3 one. And yet you say Tomas is the bigger threat? Hmmm... I get that match ups play into this, but I really think that Nole is the better player and tougher mentally and thus I would say he's more of a threat. Too each his/her own.

BTW, I don't hate Berdych. I just disagree based on the evidence and Berdych vs Nole as players...

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"...Wimbledon happened just this year? Andy was almost 2 sets to love up against Federer – what happened then? Was it really the roof or was it the fact that, Andy became a bit passive after again"

For me it had a lot to do with the roof and the momentum switch. Since then, at both Olympics and Shanghai, Andy has had no problem beating Fed. That Fed is older is irrelevant since you still listed him as a serious threat going forward. I think Andy can deal with him now, with a bit more confidence and sustained aggression, which we've already seen more of. Just my opinion...
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #112 on: October 26, 2012, 06:45 PM »
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Do you understand what a tennis discussion is? It can't always be just about matches or who said what about Andy in what paper or how good Kim looks in different outfits. This is actually a genuine discussion re: Andy’s true rivals. You don’t agree with mine then that’s fine, present yours and give details. If this discussion doesn’t suit your taste then just posts on some other thread. But I am trying to have a discussion here, because part of the reason why I tend to be on the forums is to have tennis related discussions. There’s actually no thread where it talks about Andy’s game – the technical side, or his strengths or weaknesses but I can see why that’s the case.  
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #113 on: October 26, 2012, 07:01 PM »
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Not sure I follow your reasoning here EJ. Are you suggesting Nole at his best is a joke? Berdych has been at his best and has never won a slam, has reached only 1 slam final. Nole has been at his best and has beat Fed and Nadal in slams, and Muzz in a slam final. Nole has a 9-7 H2H with Andy and Berd a 4-3 one. And yet you say Tomas is the bigger threat? Hmmm... I get that match ups play into this, but I really think that Nole is the better player and tougher mentally and thus I would say he's more of a threat. Too each his/her own.

BTW, I don't hate Berdych. I just disagree based on the evidence and Berdych vs Nole as players...

For me it had a lot to do with the roof and the momentum switch. Since then, at both Olympics and Shanghai, Andy has had no problem beating Fed. That Fed is older is irrelevant since you still listed him as a serious threat going forward. I think Andy can deal with him now, with a bit more confidence and sustained aggression, which we've already seen more of. Just my opinion...

Why would I say Nole at his best is a joke? lol. I meant when Berdych is on, he's no joke. You need to take him very seriously but that doesn't apply against everyone, because both Nadal and Nole are fully capable of handling Berdych, though that's largely because Tomas tends to choke against these two. But that's also when the the match-up factor kicks in.

I am saying that, Andy at his best will be able to handle Nole (at his best) better best because he matches up Nole very well. On the other hand, I believe Berdych at his best will be able to create more problems for Andy at his best. So that’s the reason why I put Berdych before Nole as a bigger threat.

Same reason why I did the same with Federer. Unless Andy beats Federer in a Slam, nothing changes but even so, Federer is too old now.

Anyway, in Sampras’ case it didn’t matter how red-hot Sampras was if he was up against Krajicek. We all knew that all bets were off and it literally came down to 50/50 vs the two, because it was too unpredictable to predict. We just didn’t see Krajicek giving up because when these two were on, it basically came down to who’s going to collapse first mentally. So obviously, Krajicek was the biggest threat and main rival of Sampras, though Agassi fans would always insist that it was Agassi. But we all knew Sampras at his best would almost always trump Agassi at his best.
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michelle
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #114 on: October 26, 2012, 07:03 PM »
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Do you understand what a tennis discussion is? It can't always be just about matches or who said what about Andy in what paper or how good Kim looks in different outfits. This is actually a genuine discussion re: Andy’s true rivals. You don’t agree with mine then that’s fine, present yours and give details. If this discussion doesn’t suit your taste then just posts on some other thread. But I am trying to have a discussion here, because part of the reason why I tend to be on the forums is to have tennis related discussions. There’s actually no thread where it talks about Andy’s game – the technical side, or his strengths or weaknesses but I can see why that’s the case. 
You don't have discussions it's just tedious and .......Please don't tell others to go to another forum because they offer a different opinion, you are not in charge of this forum and you need to back down a bit and not be so self opinionated.
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #115 on: October 26, 2012, 07:10 PM »
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You don't have discussions it's just tedious and .......Please don't tell others to go to another forum because they offer a different opinion, you are not in charge of this forum and you need to back down a bit and not be so self opinionated.

Seriously Michelle, you are being bit too protective as I see it. I am saying if you don't like the discussion then you can always skip it but you just can’t simply preach not practice it; as in, you can't simply tell me to shut the discussion, as you are also not in charge of this forum. Do you see now how ridiculous you sound? And my intention isn't even bad or anything. You don’t like Andy more than I do.
This is actually very sad from a tennis fan’s perspective.
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #116 on: October 26, 2012, 07:13 PM »
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BTW I didn’t tell you to go to “other forum” but to check out other threads where you have more suitable discussion going on. That's just wrong when you accuse me of something I didn’t even say.
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michelle
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #117 on: October 26, 2012, 07:19 PM »
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Stop right there,you getting rude. I haven't joined in your discussions because there is no point. So how you can make a statement like 'You don't like Andy more than I do,' is beyond me as you don't know what I think as I haven't joined in your discussion, but I don't think you have the right to tell someone to go to another forum.
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Emma Jean
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #118 on: October 26, 2012, 07:25 PM »
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So you really think I am the one who's being rude here? Okay.

But I'll oblige and not continue with this discussion, because there's actually no point when things get this way when the original intention was to have a discussion.
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Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #119 on: October 26, 2012, 07:41 PM »
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I am saying that, Andy at his best will be able to handle Nole (at his best) better best because he matches up Nole very well. On the other hand, I believe Berdych at his best will be able to create more problems for Andy at his best. So that’s the reason why I put Berdych before Nole as a bigger threat.

I disagree for the reasons I stated; if what you say is true, that Berdych chokes against Rafa and Nole (with which I disagree; I think they've just figured out how to neutralize Tomas' power) then why wouldn't he choke against Andy too? Their H2H is only 1 match separating him. Andy has a good record versus most big serves and power hitters (Tsonga, Isner, Karlovic, Delpo) so I think he just has to find the key versus Berd. I guess we agree to disagree on this one.

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Same reason why I did the same with Federer. Unless Andy beats Federer in a Slam, nothing changes but even so, Federer is too old now.

Again, I disagree, considering Murray could beat Fed in his prime, back in 2006; that suggests to me that Andy can deal with Fed's best. He beat him in Canada in 2010 when Fed was about to make the semis of the USO and when he won Cincy; i.e., Fed was playing well.  Just curious: if you say "Federer is too old now" how come you still put him as a bigger threat than Nole in your rivals list?
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