Home Search Calendar Help Login Register
Did you miss your activation email?
MurraysWorld Discussions  >  Murray Community  >  Andy Talk  >  The Murray and Djokovic Era? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 Go Down Reply
Author

The Murray and Djokovic Era?

 (Read 6625 times)
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #120 on: October 26, 2012, 07:43 PM »
Reply

One minor correction (lol), I meant to say that you can't claim you like Andy more than I do, simply because you have no idea how much I like Andy.

I can’t actually believe that it has now come down to this silliness. lol
IP Logged
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #121 on: October 26, 2012, 08:46 PM »
Reply

I disagree for the reasons I stated; if what you say is true, that Berdych chokes against Rafa and Nole (with which I disagree; I think they've just figured out how to neutralize Tomas' power) then why wouldn't he choke against Andy too? Their H2H is only 1 match separating him. Andy has a good record versus most big serves and power hitters (Tsonga, Isner, Karlovic, Delpo) so I think he just has to find the key versus Berd. I guess we agree to disagree on this one.

Again, I disagree, considering Murray could beat Fed in his prime, back in 2006; that suggests to me that Andy can deal with Fed's best. He beat him in Canada in 2010 when Fed was about to make the semis of the USO and when he won Cincy; i.e., Fed was playing well.  Just curious: if you say "Federer is too old now" how come you still put him as a bigger threat than Nole in your rivals list?

I can reply to your post but I have decided against it as you can see from my previous posts. But I can also leave Andy out and make my statements about Berdych vs Nole. I don't think anyone will have any problems then but then again, this topic won't belong here anymore since this is primarily Andy's section. I can also PM you if you want where we will be able to discuss everything as we've already gone back and forth in the past a few times.

Anyway, to answer part of your question, Berdych does tend to choke against Nadal and Nole. It was visible to me quite a few times. In fact, almost everyone tends to choke against Nadal or at least gets tight. Nadal makes a very big statement every time he walks into a court, so that can be intimidating itself, but the real problem isn't there. As I've already mentioned, it's a match-up issue. Nadal, Nole and others etc. don't play identical games so it's different for everyone. While Nole has a commanding lead over Berdych, in GSs, they are 1 all and I think that's because Berdych tends to bring his best against the top players in GSs and that's where the big stage is.

Another thing I’d say is that there are 4 big players at the top and 1 player can only deal with so much, since someone is always rising to the top of their game every other year. And Berdych doesn’t fall into the same category as Tsonga, Isner, Karlovic, Delpo as his power is more smooth and natural like Federer. He also moves quite well despite being tall. Apart from Tsonga, no one moves nearly as well in that category and any opponent who moves better than them will be able take advantage of that.

Nole and Berdych need to meet more often in GSs to prove a point. Only a couple of encounters don’t really justify the situation. All the other top players have met each other countless time, so it’s easier to draw conclusion based on those results.

This is positive touch on Andy so I’ll say it but Andy was able to beat a supremely prime Nole this year (USO). As you can see, GS encounters are my main criteria here since I believe that’s where the players tend to play their best and try their best to stay injury free.
IP Logged
ABF
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,243

Gender: Male


Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #122 on: October 26, 2012, 10:00 PM »
Reply

Imo...I'd say Berdych is currently the most threatening outside of Djoko & Andy ...he has a power game but with better movement and net play. His temperament is questionable tho....tends to implode when his power game is neutralised...which is main reason for djoko and nadal having little problem with him. Both Nad and Djok seem to impose their tennis style on him quickly......whereas Andy waits for him to make mistakes and hope he capitulates....problem is when his error count is low. Andy then struggles against his game. Had the weather conditions been normal...i'm not convinced Andy would have won that match at usopen....if pushed I'd say Andy would have won..but he was struggling at the exact moments the wind dropped..... berdych was then making less errors and hitting the lines with his shots. However, one could also argue that the test of true ability is ability to adapt....Andy did....Berdych didn't. That's what I believe is the difference between them....Andy can adjust better to problems placed in front of him.
its always easy to say a defeated player wasnt playing at their best .....but with the exception of clear injury or ilness...i dont think that is valid.
EJ ...you say you base your views on slam results... well based on what I've seen in slams ...and berdych's performance in slams I'd say Andy is the better player. berdych has made how many GS finals? he is also older than andy with decreasing timeframe to become better.

for the moment i'd say the players who stand the best chance of winning future slams are murray and djoko....with nadal challenging for the french...IF fit.
IP Logged
janetx
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,171



Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #123 on: October 26, 2012, 10:34 PM »
Reply

Quote
Berdych tends to implode when his power game is neutralised...which is main reason for djoko and nadal having little problem with him. Both Nad and Djok seem to impose their tennis style on him quickly....

AFB, I agree very much with your take. Only once do I recall Tomas choking against Nole, and that was at the WTF in a tiebreak.

Usually Nole knows how to play him. In fact, recently, right after Bejing, Berdych said his nightmare on the court is "Djokovic". Nole just matches up very well with him. There is NO WAY Nole would have such a lopsided H2H with him due to choking. Nole just has his number.

Emma Jean, you don't have to respond here. I just wanted to add a couple points. Firstly, both Berd and Sod have been suspect mentally at times, but they've both toughened up in recent years; too bad for Soda that he fell ill. As for Berd's slam win over Nole, it was at Wimbledon in 2010; Nole's worst surface is grass and he was not in great form that year until the end, when he reached the finals of the USO, and won DC. That's right around when he began to change his diet.

As for Murray and Nole, I'd say Nole was in his best form at AO 2011. That was his best. In 2012, I'd argue that we've seen only flashes of Nole's best here and there, but not near his best level, which we saw through a lot of 2011, but especially the first half of that year. BUT, I personally don't think Murray was at his best at this year's USO either. How could either of them be at their best with all that wind? Murray's best was at the Olympics. To me, his best surface is grass; second is hard courts.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that I think theirs is a very close match up and thus they pose a great challenge for one another going forward, which can be seen as a good thing!  yay
IP Logged
janetx
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,171



Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #124 on: October 26, 2012, 10:41 PM »
Reply

Quote
As you can see, GS encounters are my main criteria here since I believe that’s where the players tend to play their best

Well, ideally, that would be the case; however, I don't think it's necessarily true. In fact, the masters are very challenging in a different way, as the players are faced with seeds from their first matches! Slams require a different kind of skill because it's best of 5 sets, and thus they need to be physically prime. But surely that's not always the case. Slams probably showcase the physical fitness and mental strength of players more than masters, but masters require extreme focus because they get no full day breaks (which players usually get at slams - unless it's the USO/FO where they sometimes have to play back-to-back due to rain/light issues) and because they can be challenged straightaway from the first match.

I'd look at results at both myself...
IP Logged
scotnadian
World No 1
*******
Posts: 12,459

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto


Give me your JMac, Henman, Cash & 2 balls.

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #125 on: October 26, 2012, 11:33 PM »
Reply

. Slams probably showcase the physical fitness and mental strength of players more than masters, but masters require extreme focus because they get no full day breaks (which players usually get at slams - unless it's the USO/FO where they sometimes have to play back-to-back due to rain/light issues) and because they can be challenged straightaway from the first match.

I'd look at results at both myself...

See.. this is what I've always found interesting about Andy. Generally a slow starter, but Master of The Masters.
I also agree with you about grass being his best surface..great as he is on hc.
IP Logged
ABF
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,243

Gender: Male


Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #126 on: October 26, 2012, 11:34 PM »
Reply



 To me, his best surface is grass; second is hard courts.


Yeah ... I agree with Murray's best surface being grass...but a close second is the playing surface at the Australian Open..whilst its a hard court like US open ....the difference is its made from a product called Rebound Ace. This product has added layer of cushion built into it. It is a good surface for both Djoko and Andy because it is easier for them to play their highly physical game styles on. It also uses a different type of sand on top layer. I think this actually benefits Andy slightly more than Djoko.... coz it provides better traction for a running game... but is also not great for sliding into which Djoko requires alot for his retreiving game..whereas Andy uses pure stop/start speed.
IP Logged
scotnadian
World No 1
*******
Posts: 12,459

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto


Give me your JMac, Henman, Cash & 2 balls.

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #127 on: October 26, 2012, 11:43 PM »
Reply

I think this actually benefits Andy slightly more than Djoko.... coz it provides better traction for a running game... but is also not great for sliding into which Djoko requires alot for his retreiving game..whereas Andy uses pure stop/start speed.

That's a great point. Unlike Nole, Andy hasn't mastered the slide. He is very much a run/stop/start/speed burst player.
Probably also the biggest reason he hasn't done so well on clay.
Brad Gilbert talks incessantly about the (self-penned) 'California Slide.'
IP Logged
janetx
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,171



Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #128 on: October 26, 2012, 11:47 PM »
Reply

True ABF, re: AO. I think Andy has a great shot there next year.

scotnadian, that's an odd paradox for sure... but yet true that Andy has had a lot of success at the Masters. But I guess the fab four have done well at slams OR masters, no matter. They are masters of ALL!
IP Logged
ABF
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,243

Gender: Male


Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #129 on: October 27, 2012, 12:17 AM »
Reply

That's a great point. Unlike Nole, Andy hasn't mastered the slide. He is very much a run/stop/start/speed burst player.
Probably also the biggest reason he hasn't done so well on clay.
Brad Gilbert talks incessantly about the (self-penned) 'California Slide.'

Yeah its interesting.... I think its one of the major changes Djoko made to his game to challenge for the slams. I reckon he realised that to win the big matches he needed to get more ball back in play more than he was doing ...and so made that change. Over time he has got better and better at it. He struggles to do that still on grass though.
At the same time it's also a weakness.... coz I sense that he is over reliant on that. If an opponent focuses on reducing the chances of Djoko reaching a ball to get full weight on it....i reckon it dramatically reduces Djoko's effectiveness...so it becomes more important where an opponent places the ball rather than how much power is behind it. Whereas against Andy the opponent needs to use power combined with placement ...so that Andy, despite his speed just cant get there....Its very hard to sustain that which is partly why Andy's matches can be so up & down... and not good for our hearts lol...but the flip side is ..on form..Andy and his game are very hard to beat.

The area I feel Andy needs most to improve is his serving accuracy...I feel that will dictate his success next year...He has the ability to serve much better than he has done. For me, he hasn't been getting 1st serves in play often enough...and his second serve is a worry despite Andy using variety to counteract lack of power. The top players sense opportunity everytime Murray has to hit a second serve.
[ Last edit by ABF October 27, 2012, 12:49 AM ] IP Logged
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #130 on: October 27, 2012, 01:42 AM »
Reply

AFB, I agree very much with your take. Only once do I recall Tomas choking against Nole, and that was at the WTF in a tiebreak.

Usually Nole knows how to play him. In fact, recently, right after Bejing, Berdych said his nightmare on the court is "Djokovic". Nole just matches up very well with him. There is NO WAY Nole would have such a lopsided H2H with him due to choking. Nole just has his number.

Emma Jean, you don't have to respond here. I just wanted to add a couple points. Firstly, both Berd and Sod have been suspect mentally at times, but they've both toughened up in recent years; too bad for Soda that he fell ill. As for Berd's slam win over Nole, it was at Wimbledon in 2010; Nole's worst surface is grass and he was not in great form that year until the end, when he reached the finals of the USO, and won DC. That's right around when he began to change his diet.

As for Murray and Nole, I'd say Nole was in his best form at AO 2011. That was his best. In 2012, I'd argue that we've seen only flashes of Nole's best here and there, but not near his best level, which we saw through a lot of 2011, but especially the first half of that year. BUT, I personally don't think Murray was at his best at this year's USO either. How could either of them be at their best with all that wind? Murray's best was at the Olympics. To me, his best surface is grass; second is hard courts.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that I think theirs is a very close match up and thus they pose a great challenge for one another going forward, which can be seen as a good thing!  yay


Nole was in a zone in 2011 and that's not his normal self. This year he is more playing to his normal self and consistent level. This he will be able to continue but he won't be able to repeat 2011. That's a rarity and only happens once in a while to certain players for whatever reason. Andy was at his best at the Open on certain occasions and frankly, no one deserved the title more than him, simply because he was the one who was able to adjust the various conditions. Not Nole or Berdych or anyone else. Andy's Olympics win was also played in a zone and not his normal best. Andy's best is actually yet to come and I feel it will start from next year. This will have to be something like Federer (2004-2007) and Sampras (1994 to 1999) and to lesser extent Nadal (2008 to 2011).

As to Berdych again, I've already stated that we can't make excuses to suit our arguments. Federer fans have been making those for years like how Nadal is the clay GOAT therefore, those wins over Federer or on clay don't really count.

I've seen Murray fans freakin out much more at the sight or thought of Andy playing Berdych than let's say either Federer or Nole. And that was not such a long time ago. I somewhat agree with grass being Andy's best surface. I think it's debatable. Both Sampras and Federer fans have been arguing forever as to which is their best surface as it always comes down to either hard or grass.  Some say hard is Sampras' best surface even though he had a solid run at Wimbledon. Same with Federer but personally I feel none of these surfaces has to be their best. They are equally great on both surfaces and so is Andy. And they are all great indoor players as well including Andy, though Andy's results aren't quite there yet, but we still have a few years left, so will see. I always tend to see Andy in Sampras', Federer category to be honest. I feel he has the same elements as those two, though Andy's taking far too much time to sort things out.

Lastly, when I look at Berdych and Nole as Andy's next possible opponent, Berdych definitely makes me far more uncomfortable. Both Berdych and Soderling are THE most dangerous players on tour and they have the ability to entirely mess things up for the top four. And the earlier they to get to them the better as it takes a lot away if they have to play one too many tough rounds.

We have at least one thing common and that is, I need Nole to end this year as No. 1 but next year that will change too. No compromise when it comes to Andy I am afraid!
[ Last edit by Emma Jean October 27, 2012, 01:45 AM ] IP Logged
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #131 on: October 27, 2012, 02:13 AM »
Reply

Imo...I'd say Berdych is currently the most threatening outside of Djoko & Andy ...he has a power game but with better movement and net play. His temperament is questionable tho....tends to implode when his power game is neutralised...which is main reason for djoko and nadal having little problem with him. Both Nad and Djok seem to impose their tennis style on him quickly......whereas Andy waits for him to make mistakes and hope he capitulates....problem is when his error count is low. Andy then struggles against his game. Had the weather conditions been normal...i'm not convinced Andy would have won that match at usopen....if pushed I'd say Andy would have won..but he was struggling at the exact moments the wind dropped..... berdych was then making less errors and hitting the lines with his shots. However, one could also argue that the test of true ability is ability to adapt....Andy did....Berdych didn't. That's what I believe is the difference between them....Andy can adjust better to problems placed in front of him.

its always easy to say a defeated player wasnt playing at their best .....but with the exception of clear injury or ilness...i dont think that is valid.
EJ ...you say you base your views on slam results... well based on what I've seen in slams ...and berdych's performance in slams I'd say Andy is the better player. berdych has made how many GS finals? he is also older than andy with decreasing timeframe to become better.

for the moment i'd say the players who stand the best chance of winning future slams are murray and djoko....with nadal challenging for the french...IF fit.

I believe, again based on what I see and I've seen lot of them, the reasons why both Nadal and Nole are able to neutralized Berdych's game is the very reason I've stated earlier on - Berdych is mentally slow against these two and is unable to play his typical game as it impacts his performance to begin with. Everyone has their boogyman and Berdych is no exception. I am waiting for Berdych to actually play his more normal self going forward. Besides, the match-up issue is precisely a big issue due to the very reason that, some players are just either too keen on certain players and can create all sorts of trouble and some are just the opposite. They let others dictate them, but in reality, when it comes to top players and by that I don't mean only top four in any era, the margins are usually very, very narrow (game-wise) and it almost always comes down to one's mental game (very, very big). Reason why Nadal was able to beat Federer on his best surface - both hard and grass.

As to the highlighted part, I've never once said that Berdych is the better player of the two. In fact, quite the contrary. Andy is without a doubt the better player but Berdych can have his days as well against a very well rounded Andy, because he knows exactly how to trouble Andy. That's why, mind you IMO, he can pose the 2nd most danger to Andy right after Nadal. Nadal has his own enemies of course. No one's free from it no matter where they are at the moment or ever was.
IP Logged
janetx
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,171



Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #132 on: October 27, 2012, 02:58 AM »
Reply

Quote
"Nole was in a zone in 2011 and that's not his normal self. This year he is more playing to his normal self and consistent level. This he will be able to continue but he won't be able to repeat 2011. That's a rarity and only happens once in a while to certain players for whatever reason."
He played that way for an entire year, and this year we've seen flashes of it. I still maintain that 2011 represents Nole's best and he can achieve that level again. I am not saying he'll repeat 2011 and win 3 slams and 5 masters again; that was record-setting. But I think he can get his level higher than it was this year. Time will tell. I don't claim to be certain of anything in this regard; that's just my opinion.

For me "in the zone"is a state a player might get in for one match or even one tournament, but I don't see it as existing for basically a year of a player's career. I see that more like reaching potential. And perhaps riding momentum. In sports, that's important too of course. 

Quote
Andy's best is actually yet to come and I feel it will start from next year
. I still think we've seen close to some of his best, on grass, this year. Maybe not, maybe he goes higher now. I feel like he'll win 2 slams next year. That's my guesstimate. I'd say AO and Wimbles or Wimbles and USO. But who knows!? It'll be interesting to see how he matches up with Rafa, who will be back and on a mission. I'd like to see Andy beat Fed and Rafa at the slams more. I know he's got a couple wins over Raf, but I think one was a retirement, so next year will tell us a lot about Andy, methinks.

Given that the top ten seems to be getting older, I think these guys have a good future in front of them, even though they're turning 26 next year.
[ Last edit by janetx October 27, 2012, 03:15 AM ] IP Logged
janetx
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,171



Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #133 on: October 27, 2012, 03:04 AM »
Reply

Quote
" I am waiting for Berdych to actually play his more normal self going forward."

Hmmm, Nole's H2H versus Berd is 1-10 in Nole's favour. Only 4 of those 11 matches were in 2011. So the other two thirds of their meetings weren't when Nole was playing top notch. Nole has wins over him in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012. Rafa's versus Berd is 3-12. Fed versus Berd is 5-11. So Berd's gotten more wins off all the other top four guys than Nole. It's just match up I suspect.

But having said all that, the matches aren't cakewalks either; they're tight sometimes, so of course it's very possible Berd will get some more wins going forward, maybe even at WTF, which is a faster lower bouncing surface. Tomas could be dangerous in those conditions.

Quote
"almost always comes down to one's mental game (very, very big). Reason why Nadal was able to beat Federer on his best surface - both hard and grass. "

But not only mental. Definitely it has to do with match up: lefty, two-handed backhand, topspin, able to neutralize Fed's own backhand. Tougher physically too. Myriad factors, imo.
[ Last edit by janetx October 27, 2012, 03:27 AM ] IP Logged
ABF
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 1,243

Gender: Male


Re: The Murray and Djokovic Era? « Reply #134 on: October 27, 2012, 08:27 AM »
Reply

I believe, again based on what I see and I've seen lot of them, the reasons why both Nadal and Nole are able to neutralized Berdych's game is the very reason I've stated earlier on - Berdych is mentally slow against these two and is unable to play his typical game as it impacts his performance to begin with. Everyone has their boogyman and Berdych is no exception. I am waiting for Berdych to actually play his more normal self going forward. Besides, the match-up issue is precisely a big issue due to the very reason that, some players are just either too keen on certain players and can create all sorts of trouble and some are just the opposite. They let others dictate them, but in reality, when it comes to top players and by that I don't mean only top four in any era, the margins are usually very, very narrow (game-wise) and it almost always comes down to one's mental game (very, very big). Reason why Nadal was able to beat Federer on his best surface - both hard and grass.

As to the highlighted part, I've never once said that Berdych is the better player of the two. In fact, quite the contrary. Andy is without a doubt the better player but Berdych can have his days as well against a very well rounded Andy, because he knows exactly how to trouble Andy. That's why, mind you IMO, he can pose the 2nd most danger to Andy right after Nadal. Nadal has his own enemies of course. No one's free from it no matter where they are at the moment or ever was.

where did i quote you as having stated berdych as the better player? obviously any player can win a match on the day...thats why sport is entertaining otherwise there would be no point watching. berdych does cause andy problems when he is on form coz he plays with power and when he hits his marks andy's court speed isnt enough to get him back in the points... berdych's major flaw is that he capitulates when things arent going his way...but equally if andy is on form and hitting his marks then andy is clearly a better tennis player with more variety in his game. imo Wink proof in the pudding will be more slam matches between the 2 tho
IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 Go Up Reply 
« previous next »