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Benefits and financial support

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Joe
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #615 on: April 05, 2013, 11:15 AM »
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Phillpott -> "I think there is a question for government and for society about the welfare state."

It's not hard to see.

As if there are a number of other potential arsonists receiving benefits.

You don't use a man convicted of manslaughter to remind the taxpayer that there is benefit fraud, unless you want to stir up emotive reactions.

You are naive if you think Osborne wasn't aware what he was doing.


I agree entirely. Benefit fraud is obviously something that should be tackled, but to suggest that this case highlights flaws in the welfare system, as though being on benefits leads to arson and child-killing, was a calculated and repulsive move. The story here was of a nasty individual using the lives of his children, to devastating effect, to get back at a former lover. Bringing welfare into the issue is disgusting and entirely in keeping with Osborne and the Tories' political tactics.
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #616 on: April 05, 2013, 12:26 PM »
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George Osbourne should learn to keep his trap shut. He is no advert for his party who would let the kids from poor families freeze and starve if he could get away with it.Lets face it many Tories do not know what it is like to go hungry and cold. They are more interested in renewing polaris subs and waving the union jack they are so blinkered they only see what they want to. It is terrible that today the level of poverty has increased in this country. People now understand what the Tories will never change they look after their own and to hell with the rest of us.
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Masaka
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #617 on: April 05, 2013, 01:08 PM »
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Phillpott -> "I think there is a question for government and for society about the welfare state."

It's not hard to see.

As if there are a number of other potential arsonists receiving benefits.

You don't use a man convicted of manslaughter to remind the taxpayer that there is benefit fraud, unless you want to stir up emotive reactions.

You are naive if you think Osborne wasn't aware what he was doing.

What ilk? How many people do you think are like him??

I think that there are only about 200 families with 10+ children. I wonder if that included the number of men who have fathered 10+ children by different women, and who are not supporting any of them. I expect that there are vastly more women who have more than 4 children, and who are totally reliant on state support.

The really disturbing thing is Philpot wasn't actually committing any form of benefit fraud at all. Each additional child brought more money. The money was not accountable so he spent the majority of it on himself, rather than the kids. He might well be alone in killing his children to get a bigger house, I am fairly sure that he is not alone in arranging a fire to get rehoused. Most rational people make sure that the house is empty before they do it.

I repeat - given the extent to which our leaders rip us off hand over fist, my issue with the system isn't money. It's the fact that as it stands it doesn't seem to be achieving its aim of taking kids out of poverty.

I am actually in favour of a carrot rather than stick approach. If the kids achieve the expected levels and GCSE scores, of a similar age child, award a bonus. One of my most satisfying tasks as a teacher was filling out the form for a child in the care system who had exceeded their targets for GCSE. They got enough money for their driving lessons. It was great fun, and very satisfying, particularly because I knew in a small way I had contributed to the success.
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Bevc
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #618 on: April 05, 2013, 09:01 PM »
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The really disturbing thing is Philpot wasn't actually committing any form of benefit fraud at all. Each additional child brought more money. The money was not accountable so he spent the majority of it on himself, rather than the kids. He might well be alone in killing his children to get a bigger house, I am fairly sure that he is not alone in arranging a fire to get rehoused. Most rational people make sure that the house is empty before they do it.

I repeat - given the extent to which our leaders rip us off hand over fist, my issue with the system isn't money. It's the fact that as it stands it doesn't seem to be achieving its aim of taking kids out of poverty.

I heard that Philpott had wanted to get back at his former mistress, who was going to leave and take a number of children with her = less money for him. I also heard that he wanted the teddies, etc that were left in memory of the children removed from the house and sold so that he could have the cash. Then there was the money raised for the funerals - what cash was left he wanted in Argos vouchers. Eyebrow raise. This smacks of an incredibly selfish man who should have been tried for murder and not manslaughter.

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Masaka
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #619 on: April 05, 2013, 09:28 PM »
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I heard that Philpott had wanted to get back at his former mistress, who was going to leave and take a number of children with her = less money for him. I also heard that he wanted the teddies, etc that were left in memory of the children removed from the house and sold so that he could have the cash. Then there was the money raised for the funerals - what cash was left he wanted in Argos vouchers. Eyebrow raise. This smacks of an incredibly selfish man who should have been tried for murder and not manslaughter.



The reason that they didn't go for a murder charge was he obviously didn't intend to kill the children - why would he they were the source of his income. You don't  kill the geese that lay the golden eggs. The plan was for him to destroy the house forcing them to give him ghe bigger better hiuse he craved. He would rescue the kids, thereby being the great hero, which would have put even more pressure on the authorities to give him his house of dreams. Meanwhile his former mistress was to be setup as fall guy for the fire, meaning he would have got custody of the other six kids, together with the money they brought with them.

The flaw in the plan was obviously being too thick to realise exactly how dangerous petrol is when it is ignited.

Because the intent was not to kill the kids, they would have had difficulty getting a murder charge to stick. I can't imagine he will ever be released. He is never going to impress a parole board, and the public outrage will persuade any parole board, that it really won't be worth it. I think he will die in prison. Hopefully it will be hellish for him.
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Bevc
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #620 on: April 06, 2013, 02:27 AM »
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Of course, what was I thinking!

Saw this in my newspaper today

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2299927/Sharon-Minkin-refuses-job-better-benefits.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Really?

The system is a joke! no I got £44 a week, paid every fortnight 18 years ago and this was stopped because I was well qualified to get a job even though we couldn't afford suitable childcare (having a toddler and then twins kind of threw a spanner in the works).  I think I was paid unemployment benefit for a total of 3 months but luckily I got a Sunday job shortly after (hubby and I sharing childcare duties).

[ Last edit by Bevc April 06, 2013, 06:48 AM ] IP Logged
laundry
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #621 on: April 06, 2013, 03:01 AM »
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....

So the important question is: why do people have this bitterness about benefit fraud, but don't feel just as bitter about tax evasion, organized crime, and insider fraud? When do you ever see the average person complaining about these three types of fraud? Why is it always benefits?

A lot of people have a very skewed and illogical moral compass.

They see it as an outrage that the lazy unemployed are getting money without doing 'a proper days works', without realizing that criminals are doing exactly that but on a much larger scale. They seem to view 'not working' as some kind of luxury that the unemployed get to do, to them I say: try it and see how you enjoy it - it's not like you couldn't become unemployed yourself and scrounge off the system if you really wanted to - but you know why you don't? Because you know that being unemployed is not actually a good life style.

Most people also seem completely oblivious to the amount of money being lost due to efficiency in the public sector. If somebody is employed in the public sector to stand in a corner all day and do nothing people would be fine with them, they'd be like - "oh at least he has a job " - even though he is doing absolutely nothing productive and will be taking more public money being on a proper payroll than an unemployed person does.

How about this for a proposal?:

Why don't the government hire all the currently unemployed to sit in a room for a number of hours every week, and make their salaries equate to the same amount they are currently earning on benefits/jsa. That way it would cost exactly the same, but there would be no unemployed and everybody would be happy!


---
btw reading some of your posts in this thread you're my new favourite person DaveH Smile
[ Last edit by laundry April 06, 2013, 03:08 AM ] IP Logged
Bevc
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #622 on: April 06, 2013, 06:58 AM »
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Corruption and Organised Crime

Organised crime and corruption

The tentacles of organised crime increasingly extend to sectors and institutions where criminal activity and corruption are inextricably linked.  

It is currently estimated that 38,000 people are involved in organised crime in the UK, and such activities cost the economy anywhere between £20 and £30 billion per year.  The UK Border Agency, police and prison service have been targeted by organised criminals.  Social housing is exploited by organised criminals to facilitate drug trafficking and prostitution.   The employment of illegal workers is regarded by the construction industry as the single biggest corruption threat to the sector as it damages fair competition.

http://www.transparency.org.uk/our-work/corruption-in-the-uk/organised-crime

Think Needs tougher sentencing when they are eventually caught. But then again, aren't the prisons full? And just as corrupt it would seem. Vicious circle.

[ Last edit by Bevc April 06, 2013, 08:52 AM ] IP Logged
Masaka
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #623 on: April 06, 2013, 09:21 AM »
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Well, that's ridiculous Hazel! I've said this before on here many times! I do not begrudge a penny to those who genuinely cannot work and neither to I begrudge the money we spend on foreign aid! I'll write to my MP about those who cannot travel to take the medical and see what he has to say!

I think one of the problems with ATOS is that it relies on people either not knowing how to fight or not being well enough to fight. After the farce of my first assessment I wrote to them pointing out that if they required me to do another one I would want to know in advance the medical qualifications of the assessor, I would require a translator, (inspite of my requests the first assessment was carried out by someone with a heavy foreign accent meaning I really struggled to make sense of them given I am deaf), and I would also want the interview recorded.
The question that most offended me was the one about "how did I get to the centre". The implication was that if I could get there unaided I would be well enough to work, thereby suggesting that as a disabled person I didn't have the right to go out in society without a minder. Given all of my medical people are constantly telling me I need to go out to keep mobile, the idiocy of the question defied belief. Fortunately I was wise to it and had organised somebody to take me.  I don't cope with big crowds and busy times, so in the course of my daily existence I am able to avoid rush hours and such like.  Last year I wanted to go to Wimbledon to see our hero, but knew I would freak out when it was crazy, and wouldn't manage the queue. So I chose to go on the women's semi final day, when it was very quiet. I didn't decide to go until the morning when I knew how I was feeling. When you work you don't have the option of not going if you feel really rough, or avoiding rush hours. The ATOS assessment doesn't allow for variations at all.
I should point out that I did work for a long time with quite complex disabilities. It just reached the point where I couldn't manage it anymore, so it is not as though I have played the disabled card to avoid working at all.
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Masaka
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #624 on: April 06, 2013, 09:59 AM »
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How about this for a proposal?:

Why don't the government hire all the currently unemployed to sit in a room for a number of hours every week, and make their salaries equate to the same amount they are currently earning on benefits/jsa. That way it would cost exactly the same, but there would be no unemployed and everybody would be happy!



Didn't the government try this through workfare? People were up in arms about being made to take a job, when their job seekers allowance meant it was below the minimum wage. The issue is that when all of the other benefits such as housing benefit, council tax benefit, free prescriptions were added in it wasn't.
It seems daft to me that we have such a large number of unemployed, yet at the same time old people in hospitals are starving for lack of people to help them eat and drink.
I am afraid I do support measures to get the long term unemployed back to work. I also do think we need to address the professional "pregnant brigade", those women who time their pregnancies to ensure they always have a child young enough that they don't need to work. After 5 or 6 kids and a life of never working they are essentially unemployable, and so get away with never working at all in their lives. This is not fair to the majority of folks who only have the children they can afford to support. (I don't have kids so I've no axe to grind here).

As for people not reacting in the same way to tax fraud, I think that it simply because they know that nothing will ever be done about it. Most of our MP's or European leaders have fingers in these sort of companies, and are getting kick backs or profiting from them. Of course they are never going to touch them. When they retire from politics they know there will be well paid directorships up for grabs for them if they don't rock the boat.

On the other hand most of us know somebody who is ripping off the benefits system. It's more personnal somehow.

I think the system needs to differentiate between the professional unemployed and those who have through no fault of their own fallen on hard times. At the moment the system doesn't seem to.

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blueberryhill
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #625 on: April 06, 2013, 01:15 PM »
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Very rich now paying 45p instead of 50p on income tax.
Sucks IMHO
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laundry
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #626 on: April 06, 2013, 07:20 PM »
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Didn't the government try this through workfare? People were up in arms about being made to take a job, when their job seekers allowance meant it was below the minimum wage.
There's a simply solution to that, make the hourly wage equal to minimum wage but just give them the fewer hours of 'work' to do.
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Hazybear
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #627 on: April 15, 2013, 09:18 AM »
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The day of truth- got my ESA tribunal this afternoon. If you don't hear from me for a bit I'm drinking myself into a stupor
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Masaka
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #628 on: April 15, 2013, 10:11 AM »
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Good Luck. Would suggest that you create a list of jobs, and then explanations as to why, they are not reasonable for you at the present time.
Eg - in my case - Office work - typing not possible due to arthritis in hands, and difficulties sitting still for any length of time. Could be compensated for by voice activated software, however disease affects all joints and talking repeatedly would trigger attack in joints of jaw. Hearing impairment would also make working in an office very difficult, as even with a hearing aid, it is almost impossible to hear when any form of back ground noise is present.
Thing of how your disability affects you personally and try to think of their possible answers. Also ram it home how the disability impacts on you in your home and leisure time, i.e. it is not just work that is loused up.
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Hazybear
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Re: Benefits and financial support « Reply #629 on: April 15, 2013, 10:51 AM »
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Good Luck. Would suggest that you create a list of jobs, and then explanations as to why, they are not reasonable for you at the present time.
Eg - in my case - Office work - typing not possible due to arthritis in hands, and difficulties sitting still for any length of time. Could be compensated for by voice activated software, however disease affects all joints and talking repeatedly would trigger attack in joints of jaw. Hearing impairment would also make working in an office very difficult, as even with a hearing aid, it is almost impossible to hear when any form of back ground noise is present.
Thing of how your disability affects you personally and try to think of their possible answers. Also ram it home how the disability impacts on you in your home and leisure time, i.e. it is not just work that is loused up.

Thank you Smile I've got an advisor from the advice shop who is representing me so not all alone in it Smile
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