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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #60 on: August 07, 2010, 05:16 PM »
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No Hazel, God is not love if someone chooses not to believe him due to the lack of evidence and in doing so is sent to a place of everlasting torture that God allows the existence of. That is a God who's a bit of a dick, I can't see you being able to give a valid argument against that unless you choose to believe Hell is not as it is decribed in the Bible

Shrug your choice I can't change that.
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #61 on: August 08, 2010, 12:27 PM »
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What makes my brain hurt is George saying he accepts the teachings of Christ and then picking and choosing which bits he quotes to fit with his own personal little delusion.

He says that anything that contradicts his idea of what 'God is love' means is false.

He says that judgement and hell contradict 'Christ's commandments that God is love'

And yet, Christ himself spoke about judgement and hell 
So apparently Christ himself contradicts his own commandments according to George who says he believes Christ's commands  confused 


Thank you for trying to help me understand the teachings of Christ.

My understanding is that it is not merely I, but the whole Christian Church that believes that of all the things Christ was reported to have said the most important was His Two Great Commandments about Love.

I’m surprised that you think that “my idea” about this is “my own personal little delusion”.

Anything else Christ was reported to have said about judgement and hell that contradicts this, must obviously be false.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that we don’t know for sure what Christ said, because he left no records.

We only know what he was reported to have said 37 years after his death by other people starting with Matthew, but the reports about his Two Great Commandments seem to be the most reliable because they appear word for word in three of the four Gospels.

I’m surprised to think you disagree with that.

I think you may be overlooking the fact that God sent Christ because he “so loved the world” not because he so loved Christians.

Christians are not special in God’s eyes.

The only way God has allowed non-Christians to suffer is from their ignorance of His infinite love and everlasting life, but this is not really His fault.

It’s the fault of His sadly misguided followers who, instead of going around spreading the Good Word and telling everybody that He is loving and caring, go around doing the opposite and telling everybody that He is judgmental and punitive.

It’s all rather sad, and breaks His heart and mine.


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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #62 on: August 08, 2010, 04:53 PM »
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^^



You seem to be overlooking the fact that we don’t know for sure what Christ said, because he left no records.

We only know what he was reported to have said 37 years after his death by other people starting with Matthew, but the reports about his Two Great Commandments seem to be the most reliable because they appear word for word in three of the four Gospels.

I’m surprised to think you disagree with that.

I think you may be overlooking the fact that God sent Christ because he “so loved the world” not because he so loved Christians.

Christians are not special in God’s eyes.



So you're willing to believe just little bits from the same writers? Makes no sense to me

Did I say God only loved Christians? NO! I quoted John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

That passage then goes on to say...

 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #63 on: August 09, 2010, 01:34 PM »
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Thank you for trying to help me understand the teachings of Christ.  Smile

So you're willing to believe just little bits from the same writers? Makes no sense to me

As I have already said I think the New Testament reports of Christ’s teachings in Matthew are more trustworthy where they are repeated, confirmed and emphasised by Mark and by Luke, word for word.

I don’t know why that makes “no sense” to you.

As I have already said I think the New Testament reports of Christ’s teachings are unreliable where they are self-contradictory.

I don’t know why that makes “no sense” to you.

If God loves the world then he doesn’t condemn anybody. He loves everybody.

And why should He condemn anybody?

It’s His fault we are as we are. We are the way He made us, of which He is only too well aware.

That is why He is so sad, when some of us fail to appreciate and benefit from His love and the opportunity He has given us to share it with Him and all our loved ones in Heaven for ever.

He is hoping that one day everyone on Earth will Get The Message and the whole world will rise to its feet and sing as One in Joyous Ecstacy: “Hosanna in the Highest! Hosanna for Evermore! Hosanna in the Highest! Hosanna to Our King!”

That’ll be Heaven on Earth!!  Smile


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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #64 on: August 09, 2010, 08:16 PM »
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George I'm at my wits end with you. The only reason I continue to counter what you say is that I am scared that others on this sight will be taken in by your flawed understanding of God, his love but most especially his nature and power as the one and absolute God, creator of the universe, who does not have to love us or give us forgiveness but chooses too.

If as you say

If God loves the world then he doesn’t condemn anybody. He loves everybody.


Then why did we need Christ to come and die on the cross?

If God can accept us in our sins then why did he send a sacrifice and offer us forgiveness?

Surely if what you suggest is true then it wouldn't have been necessary for Christ to live among us and actually give these teachings which we are now quoting? (inaccurately on your part)

If God doesn't require us to repent and be forgiven then Christ would have remained in heaven, never come to the earth and definitely never died and rose again for us.

Actually taking that further, if God did not care if we sinned and was still able to accept us into a full and complete relationship with him anyway, then surely we would not be here having this discussion. For if this was the case then God; on finding Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes in Eden would merely have shook his head, shrugged and gone 'humans, they just can't help it', showed them how to make clothing and continued with them.

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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #65 on: August 10, 2010, 10:02 AM »
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Hazel, there's no point trying to avoid the fact that the Bible is notorious for contradictions, seems to me George is just bringing some of those up. I think you're getting upset because it's someone who is calling himself a Christian that is doing it. I think we all know that George is not a Christian but instead has created his own religion based off bits of the Bible that he likes.

A true Christian accepts the whole Bible and in doing so must face ridicule for the serious contradictions that exist which unavoidably lowers the integrity of the religion. George is just trying to get out of that because it's embarrassing for him, and should be for any Christian with a basic moral compass, to believe everything said in the Bible as the truth.
[ Last edit by Mark August 10, 2010, 10:13 AM ] IP Logged
Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #66 on: August 10, 2010, 11:10 AM »
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Hazel, there's no point trying to avoid the fact that the Bible is notorious for contradictions, seems to me George is just bringing some of those up. I think you're getting upset because it's someone who is calling himself a Christian that is doing it. I think we all know that George is not a Christian but instead has created his own religion based off bits of the Bible that he likes.

A true Christian accepts the whole Bible and in doing so must face ridicule for the serious contradictions that exist which unavoidably lowers the integrity of the religion. George is just trying to get out of that because it's embarrassing for him, and should be for any Christian with a basic moral compass, to believe everything said in the Bible as the truth.

See actually my view of it is that we are disagreeing over the understanding of contradiction. For me God has the right to judge, therefore the fact that instead of abandoning us all to an eternity without him, he offers us forgiveness and life with him is a sign of his great mercy and love.
I'm not saying that there aren't issues regarding translation and at times even having to work out where to draw the line between divine inspiration of texts and the personal bias of the writers. I have studied church history, I am not unaware of the long process it was until we ended up with what we call 'the Bible'. I am aware that there are a number of other 'gospels' out there that repeat various things found in the 4 included in the New Testament.
However, the problem is not that the Bible is full of contradictions (yes it is at times confusing and includes some concepts that are beyond our complete understanding at present), or that I lack a basic moral compass, it's that we all (and I include myself in this) try to justify our decisions and actions that do not match up to the perfection that God lays before us.

The problem is not that God is contradictory, it is that we are imperfect and I believe that even those who reject his very existence have within the heart of them a small voice that cries out that God exists and knows that we choose daily to disobey Him, separating us from a perfect relationship with him.

I know you are going to tell me that reason, science and all rational moral judgement disagrees with me, and that's fine, your choice and your decision.   

Yes I am more upset because it's someone that claims to be a Christian that's saying this, but not because I feel he is being honest and admitting to the 'flaws' in Christianity, but because I know he is giving an faulty, flawed and un-Christ-like witness and I would hate for anyone to think that his view of God is correct, because by refusing to go deeper than God's decision to love us, by not understanding that this was a choice and why God did it, he is missing out a huge and important part of a relationship with God.
If he could see that then he would fully grasp Gods mercy and grace and not need to 'adjust' things for his own comfort.
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #67 on: August 10, 2010, 11:24 AM »
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I'm going to ignore everything but the last paragraph because all you did was lecture me on a religion that I once was a part of... it's very exhausting having to read through that to get to your actual response, sorry if that sounds nasty as I really don't mean to be but I literally struggled physically to read through it all as I desperately looked for the parts that responded to my post.

Yes I am more upset because it's someone that claims to be a Christian that's saying this, but not because I feel he is being honest and admitting to the 'flaws' in Christianity, but because I know he is giving an faulty, flawed and un-Christ-like witness and I would hate for anyone to think that his view of God is correct, because by refusing to go deeper than God's decision to love us, by not understanding that this was a choice and why God did it, he is missing out a huge and important part of a relationship with God.
If he could see that then he would fully grasp Gods mercy and grace and not need to 'adjust' things for his own comfort.
It seems to me his issue is not with God but with the integrity of the Bible which is fairly understandable. One is supernatural and one is a book written by man which clearly has mistakes (contradictions).

I'm sure you'll tell me that the Bible was written by God but that makes no sense as God is perfect and therefore would not write a book with so many contradictions, so we definitely can say that some of the Bible is at least that of opinion or interpretation by the writer rather than it all being written through divine intervention. And therefore, it's fair to say that the parts that appear contradictary could just be mistakes by the human writers.

So my point is, I think you're getting a little too worked up on what appears to be a more rational and modern way of looking at the Bible.
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #68 on: August 10, 2010, 12:05 PM »
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And there is where I start crying because it may seem more 'rational' and 'modern' but it is not correct or true to the core of the good news given by Christ.

I give up, some of the other Christians on this site were right. There's no point in trying to be honest and truthful about what you believe on here, because unless it seems 'rational' to those who don't even believe there's a god then you just get told you're irrational, out of date and daft to actually hold to your beliefs.
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #69 on: August 10, 2010, 12:11 PM »
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But I'm not having ago at you for being a Christian, I'm criticising your lack of openness to the fact the Bible is not perfect, it was written by several men and therefore it should not surprise you that there are mistakes. If it was written by God, there would not be a single contradiction because it would be absolutely perfect.

I'm just disappointed you seem to struggle with that fact.
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Elly
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #70 on: August 10, 2010, 12:12 PM »
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^ Hazel.  Why would you be so upset?  If you have your beliefs, that's grand.  If others don't share them, then that is that.  You are being honest and truthful in the way you see things.  You believe there is a God, I don't.  There is no need to start crying.  Just live and let live.
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #71 on: August 10, 2010, 12:22 PM »
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And there is where I start crying because it may seem more 'rational' and 'modern' but it is not correct or true to the core of the good news given by Christ.
You seem against Christianity evolving which it is always doing - it is fairly mainstream to accept that the Bible is not all literal but instead some of the stories are fiction to help the reader understand what God is trying to teach. But there was a time where having such a belief would receive extreme disapproval in the Church.

So do you really want to be the person that tries to get in the way of evolution of Christianity? Because if you do, then you show great disrespect to your sex - if you take the Bible literally word for word as the truth that applys to our current world, you are inferior to me and you should do as I say as you are just a woman, a trivial sex.... wash my feet while us men do the important things in life. If I choose to have sex, you will do it even if you don't want to, I will rape you as you are a woman and my needs are far more important than yours.
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #72 on: August 10, 2010, 12:39 PM »
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It’s kind of you to help me with understanding Christ’s teachings.

George I'm at my wits end with you. The only reason I continue to counter what you say is that I am scared that others on this sight will be taken in by your flawed understanding of God, his love but most especially his nature and power as the one and absolute God, creator of the universe, who does not have to love us or give us forgiveness but chooses too. If as you say  “God loves everybody”,  Then why did we need Christ to come and die on the cross?  If God can accept us in our sins then why did he send a sacrifice and offer us forgiveness?  Surely if what you suggest is true then it wouldn't have been necessary for Christ to live among us and actually give these teachings which we are now quoting? (inaccurately on your part)  If God doesn't require us to repent and be forgiven then Christ would have remained in heaven, never come to the earth and definitely never died and rose again for us.


I don’t know why you are at your wits end. What you are saying seems to agree with what I’ve already said that God created the universe to create us because He loves us so much that He sent His Son, so that we could be forgiven and have eternal life.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ...

Luke 13:38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

I notice that you are saying that I have quoted the teachings of Christ inaccurately. It would be helpful if you were to tell me which quotations are inaccurate.


Hazel, there's no point trying to avoid the fact that the Bible is notorious for contradictions, seems to me George is just bringing some of those up. I think you're getting upset because it's someone who is calling himself a Christian that is doing it. I think we all know that George is not a Christian but instead has created his own religion based off bits of the Bible that he likes.

A true Christian accepts the whole Bible and in doing so must face ridicule for the serious contradictions that exist which unavoidably lowers the integrity of the religion. George is just trying to get out of that because it's embarrassing for him, and should be for any Christian with a basic moral compass, to believe everything said in the Bible as the truth.

My dictionary tells me that a Christian is somebody who follows the teachings of Christ, which teachings compose only a small part of the Bible.

My understanding of English Comprehension tells me that if two statements contradict each other, one must be false.

This would suggest that a true Christian is somebody who can accept only a small part of the Bible.


And there is where I start crying because it may seem more 'rational' and 'modern' but it is not correct or true to the core of the good news given by Christ.

It brings tears to my eyes too, that God’s children don’t appreciate His love and benefit from it, too, as it brings tears to His, but whose fault is it? Ours!


Christ has no hands but our hands to do His work today

Christ has no hands but our hands to do His work today
He has no feet but our feet to lead men in the way
He has no tongue but our tongue to tell men how He died
He has no help but our help to bring them to His side.
 
We are the only Bible the careless world will read,
We are the sinner’s gospel; we are the scoffer’s creed;
We are the Lord’s last message, given in word and deed;
What if the type is crooked? What if the print is blurred?
 
What if our hands are busy with other work than His?
What if our feet are walking where sin’s allurement is?
What if our tongue is speaking of things His lips would spurn?
How can we hope to help Him or welcome His return?

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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #73 on: August 10, 2010, 12:43 PM »
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My dictionary tells me that a Christian is somebody who follows the teachings of Christ, which teachings compose only a small part of the Bible.

My understanding of English Comprehension tells me that if two statements contradict each other, one must be false.

This would suggest that a true Christian is somebody who can accept only a small part of the Bible.
A very reasonable argument.
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #74 on: August 10, 2010, 06:43 PM »
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But I'm not having ago at you for being a Christian, I'm criticising your lack of openness to the fact the Bible is not perfect, it was written by several men and therefore it should not surprise you that there are mistakes. If it was written by God, there would not be a single contradiction because it would be absolutely perfect.

I'm just disappointed you seem to struggle with that fact.
You seem against Christianity evolving which it is always doing - it is fairly mainstream to accept that the Bible is not all literal but instead some of the stories are fiction to help the reader understand what God is trying to teach. But there was a time where having such a belief would receive extreme disapproval in the Church.

So do you really want to be the person that tries to get in the way of evolution of Christianity? Because if you do, then you show great disrespect to your sex - if you take the Bible literally word for word as the truth that applys to our current world, you are inferior to me and you should do as I say as you are just a woman, a trivial sex.... wash my feet while us men do the important things in life. If I choose to have sex, you will do it even if you don't want to, I will rape you as you are a woman and my needs are far more important than yours.

I'm not saying Christianity doesn't evolve with culture and the times and I'm definitely not saying that there are fictional stories in the Bible to help us understand, Jesus used parables which were fiction, that's obvious.
I'm not saying that I think Paul's view of women for example, or at least of relationships is correct, but I am saying that the central teachings are not contradictory and cannot be sliced and diced just for personal convenience.

What I am disagreeing with in relation to George's views is that he is refuting the fact that there will be a day of judgement and that there is a personal choice to be made by each and every person as to whether they believe in Christ as their Saviour.

He has denied that there is hell and judgement and yet in the same breath that Christ explains his love he also speaks of choice and of the consequences of the two choices that can be made.

My point being that he can't claim that the first part of the sentence is correctly passed down but the second half isn't. THAT is where my argument lies. If there was no need for forgiveness then there would be no need for Christ, his crucifixion and resurrection. 


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ...

Luke 13:38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.


George you've quoted it yourself. It is clearly stated that through Christ we are granted forgiveness and that it is whoever believes in him. There are those who do not accept Christ and do not believe in him, therefore they have not accepted his offer of forgiveness.
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