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Bible discussion thread

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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #75 on: August 10, 2010, 07:30 PM »
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This is what happens when there are contradictions, it means the reader is left with a choice of what to believe. Do you believe God is love or do you believe the existence of hell. To believe both simply means you have no idea what you are believing.
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #76 on: August 11, 2010, 02:46 PM »
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Thank you for trying to help me understand the teachings of Christ.


What I am disagreeing with in relation to George's views is that he is refuting the fact that there will be a day of judgement and that there is a personal choice to be made by each and every person as to whether they believe in Christ as their Saviour. He has denied that there is hell and judgement and yet in the same breath that Christ explains his love he also speaks of choice and of the consequences of the two choices that can be made.

George you've quoted it yourself. It is clearly stated that through Christ we are granted forgiveness and that it is whoever believes in him. There are those who do not accept Christ and do not believe in him, therefore they have not accepted his offer of forgiveness.

Right. Christ teaches us that those who do not accept his Two Great Commandments do not receive “forgiveness” and, as a result, do not receive God’s Love and everlasting life in Heaven, quite simply because they don’t want it.  That is their choice. That is Christianity.

There is no Hell and Damnation in Christianity. That is Judaism, which Christ came down on earth to overrule as he did specifically, in his Two Great Commandments, about which the Jews were not all happy, and on account of which they had him executed.

This is what happens when there are contradictions, it means the reader is left with a choice of what to believe. Do you believe God is love or do you believe the existence of hell. To believe both simply means you have no idea what you are believing.

Right. In other words are you are Christian or are you a Jew?
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #77 on: August 11, 2010, 02:51 PM »
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Is Jesus ever quoted in the Bible referring to hell?
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #78 on: August 11, 2010, 03:06 PM »
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Is Jesus ever quoted in the Bible referring to hell?

Doubt it. This is the link I use for Bible Searches with its findings on “Hell”:

http://75.102.32.213/search?site=biblecc&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=custom31&filter=0&num=10&output=xml_no_dtd&btnG=Search&q=hell
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #79 on: August 11, 2010, 03:38 PM »
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Is Jesus ever quoted in the Bible referring to hell?

Again it depends on what we're meaning by hell. The discussion of the various interpretations of the Hebrew and the Greek words that we refer and translate as 'hell' helps here.

Matthew, Mark and Luke all relate instances of Jesus discussing 'hell' however as before stated this could refer to 'abode of the dead' 'eternal punishment' or other understandings'

This link shows a search result of the NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=+Hell&searchtype=all&version1=31&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

And this of the King James Version
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=+Hell&searchtype=all&version1=9&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&startnumber=26

This is also really good in terms of explaining in the footnotes
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=mat&chapter=5#n36

If you click on the Grk-Hbw and scroll down to 5:29 and the last word 'geennan' and it's footnote 1067 then it tells pretty much the same as I posted a few pages back on the understanding of word choice etc and explains it quite well.

I suppose it is probably more appropriate and easier to find the answers we are seeking by instead asking 'what does Jesus say about heaven and entering it?'

Luke 13
The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast

 18Then Jesus asked, "What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? 19It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air perched in its branches."
 20Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

The Narrow Door

 22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
   He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
      "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

 26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

 27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."


Jesus' Sorrow for Jerusalem

 31At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
 32He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

 34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"


To then jump to Luke 12, I think this also seems quite clear to me Smile

John 12

44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

He talks of God the father as judge, that by accepting Christ you are accepting the father, and he mentions the last day- a day of judgement.
This again from the site I linked earlier gives footnotes in the passage and on the Greek and Hebrew originals too.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=12#n85
[ Last edit by HazelMP August 11, 2010, 03:44 PM ] IP Logged
Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #80 on: August 11, 2010, 04:07 PM »
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I had a look through but are those quotes from Jesus or quotes from the writers, such as Matthew?
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #81 on: August 11, 2010, 04:13 PM »
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I had a look through but are those quotes from Jesus or quotes from the writers, such as Matthew?

Depends on your perspective. They are put down as Jesus speaking and preaching, but their written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

All the stuff I linked was to stuff directly ascribed to being Jesus own words. I haven't linked anything that is narrative in the sense that it doesn't include direct speech. So none of this is read or understood as being their interpretation or commentary on it, but as the words of Christ. Smile

Did that deliberately so that it couldn't be said that I wasn't actually quoting something that is regarded as being a 'human' perspective but kept it to what is directly attributed to Christ.

Know I've explained that it was Christ's words about four times there but wanted to make it clear so that when my statements are dissected then the same thing is said in every sentence that is posted lol  

Oh actually, I just linked to the whole page so all the references from the gospels are all direct speech, the other stuff (last two results) are further extrapolation by the writers and other writers Smile Just remembered that that had been easier than linking each reference seperately. It's the one's from the gospels I was directing you too not the ones that will be condemned by someone Rolling Eyes as inaccurate Smile

Sorry kinda dying today so although the computers been on I haven't really been at it and probably won't be on again today, back's a nightmare and can't really doing anything because of the pain today Rolling Eyes
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #82 on: August 11, 2010, 04:20 PM »
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OK so they are actual quotes of Jesus.

So George, I think your position (one that I was warming to) is now weak as it's clear Jesus has directly referred to a place called hell and described it with words such as "torment" and "fire".  Now I don't see a valid argument for you to ignore the existence of hell but instead you have to accept that the contradiction you bring up is caused by Jesus/God, he is responsible, rather than simply writers giving their own misguided opinions.

Does it make things easier for a Christian? No, it now means the integrity of God is jeopardised, not just the writers of the Bible unless you think they would intentionally misquote Jesus but this would be going too far.
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #83 on: August 11, 2010, 05:09 PM »
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OK so they are actual quotes of Jesus.

So George, I think your position (one that I was warming to) is now week as it's clear Jesus has directly referred to a place called hell and described it with words such as "torment" and "fire".  Now I don't see a valid argument for you to ignore the existence of hell but instead you have to accept that the contradiction you bring up is caused by Jesus/God, he is responsible, rather than simply writers giving their own misguided opinions.

Does it make things easier for a Christian? No, it now means the integrity of God is jeopardised, not just the writers of the Bible unless you think they would intentionally misquote Jesus but this would be going too far.

Thanks Mark yes

While I know we won't agree on the nature of God and that I can't reconcile you to the fact that Jesus words aren't contradicting but are rather showing the fullness of God etc Smile
I'm glad you now see that I wasn't being a wildly hysterical believer completely blinded against any criticism of scripture. lol I'd have hated that, as while I am completely committed to what I believe and most of that is completely at odds with your thoughts, I didn't want you thinking that I was being a condemnatory or over conservative and old fashioned 'religious person'. I was just pointing out that as with pretty much everything else George says he misses out the bits he doesn't want to respond to.
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George183
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #84 on: August 12, 2010, 06:11 PM »
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Thank you for trying to help me understand the teachings of Christ.

OK so they are actual quotes of Jesus. So George, I think your position (one that I was warming to) is now weak as it's clear Jesus has directly referred to a place called hell and described it with words such as "torment" and "fire".  Now I don't see a valid argument for you to ignore the existence of hell but instead you have to accept that the contradiction you bring up is caused by Jesus/God, he is responsible, rather than simply writers giving their own misguided opinions.

As I have already said there are no “quotes of Jesus”, in the Bible because he left no written record.

The reports in the Gospels about the teachings of Christ are hearsay evidence, made 50 years after the event, which would never be accepted in court, today, because its veracity is unreliable, especially when you bear in mind how unreliable the word of reporters is considered to be today, despite their actually writing their reports on the spot.

The reports of Christ’s Two Great Commandments about Love, seem more likely to be true, because they appear in three Gospels word for word, but I accept your right, to dismiss them as unreliable and false, as well, of course, if you wish, as many do.

Reports that : “Jesus directly referred to a place called hell and described it with words such as "torment" and "fire"” are clearly false because they contradict the more reliable report that Jesus directly referred to God as being Loving.

I do not, however, “have to accept that the contradiction is caused by Jesus/God”,  of course, as you allege, because, as you must agree, the evidence that he actually said it is unreliable.


Thanks Mark yes  While I know we won't agree on the nature of God and that I can't reconcile you to the fact that Jesus words aren't contradicting but are rather showing the fullness of God etc Smile

I'm glad you now see that I wasn't being a wildly hysterical believer completely blinded against any criticism of scripture. lol

I’m not sure why you are saying: “Thanks Mark yes” when he blames the contradictions about “torment” and “hell-fire” in the “scripture” on Christ, thereby completely destroying his credibility, and making his teachings nonsensical.

And I’m not sure why you are saying: “I'm glad you now see that I wasn't ... blinded against any criticism of scripture” implying that you now accept criticism of scripture, and think it is a big joke with the use of the emoticon lol.


I was just pointing out that as with pretty much everything else George says he misses out the bits he doesn't want to respond to.

It is true that George does dis-miss “the bits” that are contradictory, because he believes that the teachings of Christ that God is Love are not contradictory and nonsensical, but consistent and true.

That is his choice, and you and Mark, of course, are perfectly free to choose the opposite, although he is rather sad, of course to see that you do.
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #85 on: August 12, 2010, 06:40 PM »
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George, assuming you don't think that any of the writers of the Bible would intentionally lie about what Jesus said then those appear to be actual quotes of what Jesus had verbally said...

There maybe some inaccuracies but there's enough mentions of Hell by Jesus that it's fair to say that if he in fact did not make references to it, then the writers simply lied and made it up which brings the entire Bible into question.
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #86 on: August 12, 2010, 06:48 PM »
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Thank you for trying to help me understand the teachings of Christ.

As I have already said there are no “quotes of Jesus”, in the Bible because he left no written record.

The reports in the Gospels about the teachings of Christ are hearsay evidence, made 50 years after the event, which would never be accepted in court, today, because its veracity is unreliable, especially when you bear in mind how unreliable the word of reporters is considered to be today, despite their actually writing their reports on the spot.

The reports of Christ’s Two Great Commandments about Love, seem more likely to be true, because they appear in three Gospels word for word, but I accept your right, to dismiss them as unreliable and false, as well, of course, if you wish, as many do.


Reports that : “Jesus directly referred to a place called hell and described it with words such as "torment" and "fire"” are clearly false because they contradict the more reliable report that Jesus directly referred to God as being Loving.

I do not, however, “have to accept that the contradiction is caused by Jesus/God”,  of course, as you allege, because, as you must agree, the evidence that he actually said it is unreliable.


I’m not sure why you are saying: “Thanks Mark yes” when he blames the contradictions about “torment” and “hell-fire” in the “scripture” on Christ, thereby completely destroying his credibility, and making his teachings nonsensical.

And I’m not sure why you are saying: “I'm glad you now see that I wasn't ... blinded against any criticism of scripture” implying that you now accept criticism of scripture, and think it is a big joke with the use of the emoticon lol.


It is true that George does dis-miss “the bits” that are contradictory, because he believes that the teachings of Christ that God is Love are not contradictory and nonsensical, but consistent and true.

That is his choice, and you and Mark, of course, are perfectly free to choose the opposite, although he is rather sad, of course to see that you do.


1. In 3 out of 4 of the Gospels Jesus is 'alleged' to have referred to hell and judgement, so it makes the reports seem as reliable as Jesus discussing a loving God.
2. As with Mark your inability to accept a God of complete love (which I am able to believe in if not completely understand at times), much beyond our understanding, who is so pure that He will not accept sin; which yes he gave us (humanity) the choice to commit but also gave us (humanity) the choice not to commit as well, means that you cannot allow for a God that loves us but cannot accept us unless we are willing to repent and stand forgiven through the sacrifice of the cross.
As I said before, if God was willing to accept us (humanity) without needing us to be absolved of our sins then there would have been no need for Christ's presence on earth in the first place.
3. I obviously don't see God or Jesus as being contradictory because I can accept and understand God as the loving Judge.
4. I'm thanking Mark for understanding my point of argument, that you can't claim that one statement of Christ's is obviously reliable and yet that another, as well documented statement of his isn't. I can accept that people criticise scripture, I don't agree with there criticism but I can listen to it and engage in discussion and debate on the topic. It don't view it as a big joke, I was smiling about the over exaggerated image I had just described to Mark which is completely different.
5. George you deliberately miss out complete swaths of scripture and of the basics of the Christian faith to make it 'fit' for you. That doesn't make you a Christian or a true believer in Christ, it makes you someone who is scared of death and scared of the fact that you may one day be held responsible for the actions, thoughts and words that you have said in this life (as will we all).
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Mark
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #87 on: August 12, 2010, 06:51 PM »
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so it makes the reports seem as reliable as Jesus discussing a loving God.
Exactly, this is where George's argument crumbles... he can't disbelieve the numerous Hell quotes due to potential inaccuracies and then conveniently believe the ones that talk about God being loving... you either trust all the writers of the Bible are telling the truth with a reasonable amount of accuracy or you don't.
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Hazybear
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #88 on: August 12, 2010, 06:57 PM »
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Exactly, this is where George's argument crumbles... he can't disbelieve the numerous Hell quotes due to potential inaccuracies and then conveniently believe the ones that talk about God being loving... you either trust all the writers of the Bible are telling the truth with a reasonable amount of accuracy or you don't.

yes And while you and I may disagree on the nature of God and a lot of other stuff, even from a unbiased viewpoint you can see that this is a ridiculous standpoint that he has adopted. I'm willing to accept that the Gospel writers all record the words of Christ reliably, and also that the other accounts and letters that make up the New Testament follow and contain the core truths and good news about Jesus, as well as extrapolating Jesus own preaching to cover issues that Christ did not speak about specifically but covered under more general statements concerning love, fulfilment (in spirit) of the law etc.
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Re: Bible Discussion thread « Reply #89 on: August 13, 2010, 01:32 PM »
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GEORGE ..... got a question.

The History programme on SKY anytime are running a programme on Ancient Aliens which I found to be fascinating.  It started me thinking and now I am wondering ...

Could Jesus have been an Alien??
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