Andy Murray vs Joao Sousa, Thursday, Estimated time - 3:30pm BST - Discuss the match
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Bible discussion thread

Caz
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Genesis 19:8

“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”
FFS! Grrrr!
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FFS! Grrrr!

Well yes, but then again you need to read it in the context of the time, as you do with all scripture.

The fact is that in those times, and even in New Testament times, a woman would have been seen as a man's property. She would have been a third class citizen, not really a person in her own right. In those times a woman wouldn't even have been allowed to give evidence in court, because they were considered unreliable witnesses.

However, look at the gospels to see Jesus's attitude to women. I don't believe for a moment that it is a coincidence that the first person to witness the risen Jesus was a woman. However, it's quite telling that when she went back and told the disciples that she'd seen Him, they didn't believe her, not at first. I have a rather marvellous mental image of the disciples rolling their eyes and thinking 'okay then, Mary's gone off on one again', until they saw Him for themselves that is!
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Well yes, but then again you need to read it in the context of the time, as you do with all scripture.

The fact is that in those times, and even in New Testament times, a woman would have been seen as a man's property. She would have been a third class citizen, not really a person in her own right. In those times a woman wouldn't even have been allowed to give evidence in court, because they were considered unreliable witnesses.

However, look at the gospels to see Jesus's attitude to women. I don't believe for a moment that it is a coincidence that the first person to witness the risen Jesus was a woman. However, it's quite telling that when she went back and told the disciples that she'd seen Him, they didn't believe her, not at first. I have a rather marvellous mental image of the disciples rolling their eyes and thinking 'okay then, Mary's gone off on one again', until they saw Him for themselves that is!

It's not even about the fact hey were woman. It's that the man would sacrifice his own family to protect these strangers from the townspeople who wanted to harm them.
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Have any of the Christians out there read Max Lucado's Cure for the Common Life? A friend sent me it as she thought it would be good for me and I keep saying I'm going to start reading it but haven't gotten as far as picking it up yet Smile
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Well yes, but then again you need to read it in the context of the time, as you do with all scripture.

The fact is that in those times, and even in New Testament times, a woman would have been seen as a man's property. She would have been a third class citizen, not really a person in her own right. In those times a woman wouldn't even have been allowed to give evidence in court, because they were considered unreliable witnesses.

However, look at the gospels to see Jesus's attitude to women. I don't believe for a moment that it is a coincidence that the first person to witness the risen Jesus was a woman. However, it's quite telling that when she went back and told the disciples that she'd seen Him, they didn't believe her, not at first. I have a rather marvellous mental image of the disciples rolling their eyes and thinking 'okay then, Mary's gone off on one again', until they saw Him for themselves that is!
I think that Jesus elevated woman in a way that had not been seen before. I bet they did roll their eyes.Mark does the same thing I think. Whistle
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I think that Jesus elevated woman in a way that had not been seen before. I bet they did roll their eyes.Mark does the same thing I think. Whistle

Indeed, but Jesus was a total revolutionary in so many ways, even a radical.
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Caz
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Well yes, but then again you need to read it in the context of the time, as you do with all scripture.

The fact is that in those times, and even in New Testament times, a woman would have been seen as a man's property. She would have been a third class citizen, not really a person in her own right. In those times a woman wouldn't even have been allowed to give evidence in court, because they were considered unreliable witnesses.

However, look at the gospels to see Jesus's attitude to women. I don't believe for a moment that it is a coincidence that the first person to witness the risen Jesus was a woman. However, it's quite telling that when she went back and told the disciples that she'd seen Him, they didn't believe her, not at first. I have a rather marvellous mental image of the disciples rolling their eyes and thinking 'okay then, Mary's gone off on one again', until they saw Him for themselves that is!
No Teejay......I would find this sickening no matter what context I read it in! It was sickening then and it's just as sickening now, because that kind of thing and worse, is 'still' happening to women!
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No Teejay......I would find this sickening no matter what context I read it in! It was sickening then and it's just as sickening now, because that kind of thing and worse, is 'still' happening to women!

I take your point, but my point is that you can't read scripture, any scripture, solely through modern eyes and then get on your high horse about the bits you don't like. You have to read a lot of it from the original viewpoint, with the understanding, for example, that women were regarded as property, that issues of sexuality were not understood because there was no concept of sexuality as such, which led to the idea that homosexuality was bad, and that all homosexuals were bad people, and, of course, that some illnesses and disabilities classed a person as 'unclean' and therefore unable to attend places of worship.

I wasn't passing a judgement on whether the text is right or wrong, just stating the fact that you have to understand the background in which the text comes from.

I'm perfectly well aware that in some societies not much has changed and women are still treated badly, and of course that is wrong. Then again, bearing in mind that my feminist inclinations have never been particularly strong, apart from thinking that all women should vote because we owe it to those who worked so hard to get the vote for women, I could argue that some societies don't exactly value men either.
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Caz
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Teejay.....'my' point is that I 'do' understand the background, but 'still' find it sickening, however I look at it. If you see it differently, then that's up to you!
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John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

I think my belief in my God and my saviour are one of the few things keeping me going right now. No matter how deep a hole I feel I'm in it's never too deep for him to be there with me.

Agree/disagree. Believe/don't believe but my faith is physically saving my life almost every day right now.
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"Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3)
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Sometimes the words just say exactly what you're feeling and haven't been able to express.

Psalm 143:7-8 – Answer me quickly, O Lord; my spirit fails. Do not hide your face from me or I will be like those who go down to the pit. Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I’ll lift up my soul.

Psalm 147:3 – He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.
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Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.    (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
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Mark could you please actually read what I'm posting and take in how close to suicidal I am and not be so determined to mock just now
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I'm not actually mocking - those are serious posts showing the other side of the coin. I don't find the bad stuff in the Bible funny at all.

I'll stop for the moment given the circumstances and I'm sorry you're feeling the way you are right now.
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