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Free will

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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #300 on: June 02, 2012, 03:50 PM »
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As a militant determinist, how does life feel to you? Don't you get depressed at the fact you're simply observing rather than doing? Don't you feel stupid when you dislike someone or get angry at them?

Not really. I allow myself to get lost in the illusion. When I watch a movie, I'm not sitting in the cinema for 2 hours cursing how pointless it is to watch something that isn't real. I get lost in the plot and the characters. In other words, I'm not consciously aware that it isn't real every second of every day. For so many years I've been conditioned to believe that I am the author of my actions, so living my life as though I am responsible for my choices comes naturally to me.

It hasn't affected how much I enjoy life. I'm almost relentlessly rational, but a certain amount of irrationality is necessary to enjoy life. If I was 100% rational, I couldn't take pride in anything I do or get any real pleasure out of life.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #301 on: June 02, 2012, 03:57 PM »
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Yeah, the pride aspect I find the most amusing of this. I assume Sam Harris is very proud of his success which I would say is more than just a little irrational given his how he sees the world.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #302 on: June 02, 2012, 06:14 PM »
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Thanks for that vague contribution.

The same question goes to you. Give me an example of a choice you made that can be attributed to free will.

No one has been able to give me one, despite my continually asking for a single example.
I could give countless examples - but any example i could give could easily be spun as "determined" in some aspect. However since it would be one of a number of options with various cost/benefit analyses, if you like, then the choice would be mine depending on my values. But still a free choice, in my mind. The notion that it is somehow predetermined, ie out of my control, is too mechanistic in a multivariate universe. Chance is highly significant at the the micro level, its duration and frequency that builds the "deterministic" element. As a tennis fan, you should appreciate that!!
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #303 on: June 02, 2012, 06:53 PM »
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Interesting... so does the existence of determinism prevent the existence of the multiverse and vice versa?
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #304 on: June 02, 2012, 08:14 PM »
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The potential of the multiverse would preclude determinism, certainly.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #305 on: June 02, 2012, 10:01 PM »
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In that case it's surprising that the multiverse is such a respected hypothesis in the scientific world if determinism is apparently an irrefutable fact.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #306 on: June 02, 2012, 10:39 PM »
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I don't think we're on the same wavelength. Determinism is the inevitable consequence of preexisting conditions,  it does not square with free will.
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strider
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Re: Free will « Reply #307 on: June 02, 2012, 10:50 PM »
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Are we going to end up going down a "free won't" or compatibilism route here??
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #308 on: June 02, 2012, 11:13 PM »
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Que?
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #309 on: June 02, 2012, 11:50 PM »
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I could give countless examples - but any example i could give could easily be spun as "determined" in some aspect. However since it would be one of a number of options with various cost/benefit analyses, if you like, then the choice would be mine depending on my values. But still a free choice, in my mind. The notion that it is somehow predetermined, ie out of my control, is too mechanistic in a multivariate universe. Chance is highly significant at the the micro level, its duration and frequency that builds the "deterministic" element. As a tennis fan, you should appreciate that!!

It wouldn't be 'spun' as determined. It would be determined. Do you accept that all choices you make are the result of prior causes?
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #310 on: June 02, 2012, 11:51 PM »
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The potential of the multiverse would preclude determinism, certainly.

In no sense is that correct.

You're just making nonsensical, baseless statements now.
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adb..OH
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Re: Free will « Reply #311 on: June 03, 2012, 12:05 AM »
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Uh, it is a fact. Not being able to trace the precise point that caused him to drive drunk is irrelevant and impossible, since there is unlikely to be a single cause. You still don't seem to get it. Every choice we make is down to genes and biology, indisputably. There is no wiggle room here for you to subscribe to a watered down version. Once you recognise that we are the product of genes and environment (which we are), free will goes out of the window. You seem to think that there is some doubt as to whether genes and environment are the only factors, when in reality there is no doubt and no dispute.

Same question to you. Give me a decision you have made that can be attributed to free will. I'll never log onto this site again if you can give me one. In fact, if anyone on here can give me one I'll leave. There's some incentive for a bunch of the older members.
:p
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #312 on: June 03, 2012, 01:00 AM »
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In no sense is that correct.
I've not researched this so please forgive my ignorance but I was under the impression the multiverse caters for the potential for different choices we make. With determinism, there is no potential for an alternative choice. As in, if you duplicated this universe at the origin of life, determinism says the path taken to where we are now would match perfectly for each individual alive today and from the past thereby negating the need for the multiverse.
[ Last edit by Mark June 03, 2012, 01:05 AM ] IP Logged
Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #313 on: June 03, 2012, 01:11 AM »
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I've not researched this but I was under the impression the multiverse caters for the potential for different choices we make. With determinism, there is no potential for an alternative choice. As in if you duplicated this universe at the origin of life, determinism says the path taken to where we are now would match perfectly for each individual alive today and from the past thereby negating the need of a multiverse.

If every decision we make is caused by something prior, there is no way to get an alternate universe that is identical in every sense except for a single different choice. You have to understand that multiverse theory really isn't particularly fleshed out, nor is there any real agreement on how to even define it. It's a pretty vague concept.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #314 on: June 03, 2012, 01:14 AM »
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If every decision we make is caused by something prior, there is no way to get an alternate universe that is identical in every sense except for a single different choice.
I thought that was the point Fiverings was making - for the multiverse to be true, determinism cannot be.

You have to understand that multiverse theory really isn't particularly fleshed out, nor is there any real agreement on how to even define it. It's a pretty vague concept.
But the fact it is taken seriously in the scientific community would perhaps suggest they either do not believe in determinism or haven't thought about it?
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