Andy Murray vs Teymuraz Gabashvili, Time - 12:30am BST tonight - Discuss the match

MurraysWorld  >  Chit Chat  >  Free will
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Free will

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Any prior cause to the big bang would be the resultant act of determinism, which in turn makes determinism the unpinning cause of the big bang. Everything is caused by determinism, it's a fundamental truth of existence.

Even if you believe in God, God's existence is the result of determinism... if God exists surely he was always going to exists, there's no way he could possibly not exist, he would have been always destined to exist.

The same applies to the big bang, given that it happened: how could it possibly have not happened? There was no possible way that the big bang could not have occurred otherwise it wouldn't have done. Somehow, whateverhow, it was and is possible for the existence of the big bang and our universe to occur and as such it has resulted so.
    You have put yourself outside an event that has brought into existence all that you know or ever will know, which is a tiny fraction of the totality, and declared how it came to be. The infinite complexities of the universe  - eleven dimensions, I believe is the latest estimate - cannot be prescribed by  anyone. The best we can do is grope towards them with open minds. Every event has a prior cause in the physical universe we now inhabit/understand, but ultimately we come up against an initiating "event" which is utterly beyond our human comprehension and cannot be framed by any human logic, however sophisticated.
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It is a theory until it is proved.    Or is God a logically founded axiom?
It is a hypothesis. It has yet to earn the right of theory status.

If and when the hypothesis is proven, it will then be a theory, scientifically speaking.
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This is an honest, respectful post.

What does 'God' mean to you?
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My last post was open to anyone interested in responding.
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I don't know now to be honest.    At one time I suppose he/it was a crutch, a comfort, a reason for why I was here - now I just don't know.    I find atheism a bit cold though but that is just a feeling.    I'm big on feelings.
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What does 'God' mean to you?
He killed himself so I could have eternal life, innit.
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Or is God a logically founded axiom?
Not given the overall description of God by religions, I would probably say those Gods are more of an illogical fallacy :lol:

But if he was to exist in the way that religions say so then yes in essence he would be, or more aptly: instead of a logically founded axiom he would be a God founded axiom - "God exists in and of himself".

The very notion of a logically founded axiom is that it is proved onto itself. If determinism is not proven, then nothing can be proven. Trying to prove determinism is true in such a sense as you are suggesting would be like trying to prove logical consistency is true. And trust me you would have a hard time proving logical consistency holds true without using logical consistency to formulate such a proof.

The overall logical foundation to the proposed existence of God and an existence without God only differs by one proposal simply being without the need for a God. Religions say God exists in and of himself, whereas non-religion says existence simply exists in and of itself. They're both definitely on the money with that one, it's just a shame that religious concept start to go a little bit crazy after that point :D
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 12:41 AM ] IP Logged
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It sounds very like "so you pays your money and you takes your choice."
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Given my confusing life factors, what do you think made me the type of person I am?

It would be impossible for me to say. I doubt anyone on the planet would be able to give you a good answer to that question, unfortunately.
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But did I not say that already? In fact, you took long enough time to reply that but only to repeat my own post.

I was obviously replying to an earlier post, on a separate page.

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You say my world is void of logic – well, if we live in a meaningless world then why should you care if my world is void of logic let alone piss you off? In fact, I myself could care less what kind of world I live in given your premise.

Because the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us that we don't live our lives in a nihilistic fashion.

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But anyway, since you are the epitome of logic, where do you see logic in the highlighted post of yours?

There is no logic in it. I'm an extremely logical person, but I'm not a robot. I can recognise that free will is an illusion and still not be conscious of that fact for most of the day. I don't walk around constantly thinking, "I have no free will!"

As above, the idea that we consciously author our actions is such a strong intuition that we feel as though it's true, even when we know that it is false.

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More importantly, why should anyone subscribe to a model that doesn’t make any sense half the time?


When doesn't it make sense?

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That doesn’t explain why we do things and feel things when we are not responsible for them in the first place.  If determinism is the true reality then all other things should remain explained as I see it and as it should be. If it doesn’t then the concept is either flawed or not true at all.

I'm not following your reasoning here.
 
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Finally, what caused the Big Bang?

Ask a physicist.
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It is a theory until it is proved.    Or is God a logically founded axiom?

You don't understand how the word "theory" is used in science. Evolution is a "theory" and has been proven.
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It sounds very like "so you pays your money and you takes your choice."
The thing is the explanation as to why anything is here, why an initial entity exists has to be self-asserting, no matter what angle you look at it. Where it would apprehendable using self-assertion in general scientific or mathematical proofs it is completely necessary when it comes to axiomatic laws.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 12:39 PM ] IP Logged
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You don't understand how the word "theory" is used in science. Evolution is a "theory" and has been proven.

Mark has already pointed that out.    I'm not accustomed to sciencespeak (thank whoever is up there) and I've checked Chambers which defines "theory" as "a series of ideas and general principles which seek to explain some aspect of the world".    I don't view scientists as all-knowing so I'll stick with Chambers' definition.     Your
posts come over as a bit patronising.
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Your posts come over as a bit patronising.
Just wait until he uses your first name in every post during an argument Very Happy
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Determinism is not just a scientific theory though. It could possibly be scientifically proven to the extent that any other scientific theory is proven, perhaps; but regardless of our science it is fundamentally logically proven through a necessary logical consistency.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 01:07 PM ] IP Logged
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