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Author Topic: Free will  (Read 4374 times)
Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #600 on: March 12, 2013, 01:04 PM »
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Quote from: Mark on March 12, 2013, 12:53 PM
Just wait until he uses your first name in every post during an argument Very Happy

I'll keep that a secret then.   Anyway it was a bit of a throwaway remark.   It doesn't bother me really if someone tries to patronise me.   
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #601 on: March 12, 2013, 01:07 PM »
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Quote from: Iluvandy on March 12, 2013, 12:22 PM
Mark has already pointed that out.    I'm not accustomed to sciencespeak (thank whoever is up there) and I've checked Chambers which defines "theory" as "a series of ideas and general principles which seek to explain some aspect of the world".    I don't view scientists as all-knowing so I'll stick with Chambers' definition.     Your
posts come over as a bit patronising.

There are different uses for the word. A theory in scientific terms is essentially the pinnacle of a hypothesis, so to speak.

And laundry is right on this one, when he says that it is proven through logic. Asking for an experiment, as some have, is like asking for someone to set up an experiment that proves that 2+2= 4.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #602 on: March 12, 2013, 01:08 PM »
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Quote from: Iluvandy on March 12, 2013, 01:04 PM
I'll keep that a secret then.   Anyway it was a bit of a throwaway remark.   It doesn't bother me really if someone tries to patronise me.   

I'm not trying to patronise you.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #603 on: March 12, 2013, 01:39 PM »
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Quote from: Clydey on March 12, 2013, 01:07 PM
Asking for an experiment, as some have, is like asking for someone to set up an experiment that proves that 2+2= 4.
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #604 on: March 12, 2013, 01:39 PM »
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Indeed, as all scientific proof relies on determinism holding true. If any result isn't determinable then nothing is scientifically deductible.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #605 on: March 12, 2013, 01:45 PM »
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Quote from: laundry on March 12, 2013, 01:39 PM
If any result isn't determinable then nothing is scientifically deductible.

The double-slit experiment is not exactly determinable.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #606 on: March 12, 2013, 01:46 PM »
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..
Quote from: Clydey on March 12, 2013, 01:08 PM
I'm not trying to patronise you.

If you start a sentence with "You don't understand" it comes over as patronising even if it isn't meant.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #607 on: March 12, 2013, 01:48 PM »
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Quote from: Iluvandy on March 12, 2013, 01:46 PM
If you start a sentence with "You don't understand" it comes over as patronising even if it isn't meant.
Agreed and this is just one of James' weaknesses but we all have 'em Smile
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #608 on: March 12, 2013, 01:50 PM »
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Quote from: Mark on March 12, 2013, 01:45 PM
The double-slit experiment is not exactly determinable.
Yes it is, the result is probabilistically determinable. As - given that quantum physics is the under-lying mechanism in the universe - all results of any experiment are probabilistically determinable to us. Like I said if you for some reason think that the double-slit experiment is not determinable then by extension nothing we scientifically measure would be determinable.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #609 on: March 12, 2013, 02:16 PM »
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Quote from: Mark on March 12, 2013, 01:48 PM
Agreed and this is just one of James' weaknesses but we all have 'em Smile

"just one".    Do you know them all?   Can you prove scientifically that we all have them?
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #610 on: March 12, 2013, 04:12 PM »
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Quote from: laundry on March 11, 2013, 06:26 PM
Right. And what caused that?

Determinism.

Determinism can't cause Determinism again if the idea already exists. No point causing Determinism after Determinism after Determinism once it's already there.

Anyway, give me your version of Determinism.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #611 on: March 12, 2013, 04:25 PM »
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Quote from: Clydey on March 12, 2013, 10:46 AM
I was obviously replying to an earlier post, on a separate page.

Because the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us that we don't live our lives in a nihilistic fashion.

There is no logic in it. I'm an extremely logical person, but I'm not a robot. I can recognise that free will is an illusion and still not be conscious of that fact for most of the day. I don't walk around constantly thinking, "I have no free will!"

As above, the idea that we consciously author our actions is such a strong intuition that we feel as though it's true, even when we know that it is false.

Ask a physicist.

If we are a part of the same nature/pattern (Determinism) then why the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us? Shouldn't that be a part of the very pattern as well; therefore, we shouldn’t feel or even be aware of the notion that we have free will? Why this very pattern would then create such contradiction within itself?

And I don't see why I should ask a Physicist when you are the one who is fully determined on the ancient concept that every event has a prior cause that causes the event itself. The Big Bang happens to be the biggest event that has ever happened to our knowledge so I need to what caused it. You, of all people, should know.
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #612 on: March 12, 2013, 04:40 PM »
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Quote from: Emma Jean on March 12, 2013, 04:12 PM
Anyway, give me your version of Determinism.
That everything is the result of logical consistency and any laws derived from logic.

Or in other words: logical consistency and to follow the laws of nature derived from logic will determine, and solely determine every causality.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #613 on: March 12, 2013, 04:47 PM »
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Quote from: laundry on March 12, 2013, 04:40 PM
That everything is the result of logical consistency and to follow any laws derived from logic.

Or in other words: logical consistency and the derived laws of nature from it will determine, and solely determine every causality.

So you are saying this idea of ‘logical consistency’ existed before the Big Bang and this idea or logic essentially caused the event of the Universe that we live in right now?
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #614 on: March 12, 2013, 04:48 PM »
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Quote from: Emma Jean on March 12, 2013, 04:25 PM
If we are a part of the same nature/pattern (Determinism) then why the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us? Shouldn't that be a part of the very pattern as well; therefore, we shouldn’t feel or even be aware of the notion that we have free will? Why this very pattern would then create such contradiction within itself?

Because most people don't think about it. And those who do think about it, don't do so until they are older. By that time, we have been exposed to years of environmental pressure that reinforces the idea that we have free will.

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And I don't see why I should ask a Physicist when you are the one who is fully determined on the ancient concept that every event has a prior cause that causes the event itself.

When did I say that everything has a prior cause? Our actions certainly all have prior causes. However, the idea that everything has a prior cause is a pitfall in our thinking because we are pattern-seeking creatures. There is no reason not to think that the universe, even prior to the big bang, existed in some form.

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The Big Bang happens to be the biggest event that has ever happened to our knowledge so I need to what caused it. You, of all people, should know.

Why should I know? I'm not a physicist. Go tweet Lawrence Krauss.
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