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Free will

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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #390 on: March 06, 2013, 10:02 AM »
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Clydey is back!  yay

Bring it.

Full on.

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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Free will « Reply #391 on: March 06, 2013, 02:48 PM »
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Tha old place just ain't the same without Clydey.
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scotnadian
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Re: Free will « Reply #392 on: March 06, 2013, 05:29 PM »
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Sorry to hear that. I can imagine how he must feel right now.

I doubt me droning on about the illusion of free will is going to do you much good.

What supports did he lack?


He's Asperger's. Main difficulty is organisation, executive function, communication.
Never missed a class, met with his Disabiity Adviser weekly (his appts. were always on his day off but he still went.) She would give him a schedule, but obviously this wasn't working for him.
We've just discovered there were other more appropriate supports available to keep him on track, specifically visual technology.
It's not a blame-game.. it is what it is. The DA wasn't aware the schedule wasn't a good fit.. my son wasn't aware there were other options. 
He was completely overwhelmed.
He wants to try again but is deeply worried of failure.. so right now I'm helping him in the process of piecing all his options together by getting a feedback/appts with Profs, Careers Adviser, Disability Office, Academic Adviser.
If I wasn't on the scene, he would have just left everything as it was and given up.

Sorry.. this is the wrong thread for my blah blah. But where does free will come into this, Clydey?
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #393 on: March 06, 2013, 05:55 PM »
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He's Asperger's. Main difficulty is organisation, executive function, communication.
Never missed a class, met with his Disabiity Adviser weekly (his appts. were always on his day off but he still went.) She would give him a schedule, but obviously this wasn't working for him.
We've just discovered there were other more appropriate supports available to keep him on track, specifically visual technology.
It's not a blame-game.. it is what it is. The DA wasn't aware the schedule wasn't a good fit.. my son wasn't aware there were other options. 
He was completely overwhelmed.
He wants to try again but is deeply worried of failure.. so right now I'm helping him in the process of piecing all his options together by getting a feedback/appts with Profs, Careers Adviser, Disability Office, Academic Adviser.
If I wasn't on the scene, he would have just left everything as it was and given up.

Sorry.. this is the wrong thread for my blah blah. But where does free will come into this, Clydey?


It's the same as everyone else. It isn't his fault. He didn't choose his genes or his environment. We all feel like we have free will and society operates as though we have free will (people are accountable for their actions, etc.) That's the way it should be, in my opinion.

It's a difficult issue to discuss because it is superficially simple, yet is actually pretty complex. For example, I can't murder someone and then claim I wasn't responsible. It might ultimately be true that I wasn't responsible, but ignoring personal responsibility would have massive repercussions for society. Everyone could essentially claim diminished capacity.

It's a little different with mental conditions like Asperger's. Your son has a recognised cognitive disorder, so society wouldn't expect him to meet the usual standards of responsibility.

Did you pay a lot of money for his time at uni? If it's about building his confidence, the good thing is that you have identified that there are more suitable options for him. If he is worried about failing and costing you money, I can understand why he is apprehensive.

I suppose it's about identifying what caused him to be overwhelmed. Did he struggle with deadlines? I have my own issues that make me struggle with deadlines, so I had to find a way to deal with that. Thankfully, my lecturers have been understanding. In fact, I have an essay due tomorrow.
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scotnadian
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Re: Free will « Reply #394 on: March 07, 2013, 03:41 AM »
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Trying to answer your points in order:

- Agree it isn't his fault.

- How has society evolved to make us feel as if we have free will?

- Yes.. it's cost us a lot of money, but that's not an issue. We are all on the same page with family discussions, and he knows we will back him to the hilt in his life/education/career decisions. He knows the sacrifices we make, but when he failed everything the first thing that came up was the money, and how bad he felt. We hugged/cried it out so I could be sure he knew ma & pa don't care about the money. There's always a way to make it work. We've had viscerous conversations leading to us all understanding each other. No matter his life/career choices, we will always support his decisons.

- I think we've identified the reason for him being overwhelmed.
He does struggle with deadlines. Don't we all in our own way?
For some (including me) it usually brings out the best.. but for others it can be a train-wreck.

- Finally, I sincerely hope you got your essay finished in time to meet the deadline.

I'm going to use my old granny's saying here: 'It will all come out in the wash.'

It's hard being a parent, sometimes.

Feck, Clydey.. this is exhausting stuff.
[ Last edit by scotnadian March 07, 2013, 04:18 AM ] IP Logged
Littlebuddha
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Re: Free will « Reply #395 on: March 07, 2013, 12:06 PM »
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No one has free will we are all driven in different way by events. We just think we are in charge and it is not so.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #396 on: March 07, 2013, 02:46 PM »
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No one has free will we are all driven in different way by events. We just think we are in charge and it is not so.
  Sorry - our courses of action/outcomes may be constrained, but I defy anyone to prove that they are pre-determined.  To use one simple tennis analogy that would not allow for any unforced errors/unintended actions unless you believe in wicked fairies.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #397 on: March 07, 2013, 06:01 PM »
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 Sorry - our courses of action/outcomes may be constrained, but I defy anyone to prove that they are pre-determined.  To use one simple tennis analogy that would not allow for any unforced errors/unintended actions unless you believe in wicked fairies.

Could you give me an example of an action or choice you have made that was not the result of prior causes?

And there is a difference between determinism and fatalism.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #398 on: March 07, 2013, 09:23 PM »
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I don't believe prior causes are relevant to this discussion - it is the range of  available next steps and how they occur that is.  Some may be unavoidable ( e.g. reflex), some I may choose, and some I may intend but miscarry for whatever reason.  The point is that in the latter scenarios I have a choice which I exercise between two or more courses of action. Therefore I exercise some degree of free will, and I am responsible for my actions.  And determinism is certainly different from fatalism - we live in a probabalistic universe after all, where anything allowed by the laws of physics can happen, but some events are incredibly unlikely.
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scotnadian
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Re: Free will « Reply #399 on: March 08, 2013, 02:30 AM »
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I may not fully understand it, but this subject is incredibly interesting to me.

I'm truly interested in actual advice or scenario, as to my son's career/life path.

Sincere thanks to Clydey and Fiverlings.

You may not agee, but I'm still interested in your viewpoints.. and that's okay.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #400 on: March 08, 2013, 04:04 AM »
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I don't believe prior causes are relevant to this discussion - it is the range of  available next steps and how they occur that is.  Some may be unavoidable ( e.g. reflex), some I may choose, and some I may intend but miscarry for whatever reason.  The point is that in the latter scenarios I have a choice which I exercise between two or more courses of action. Therefore I exercise some degree of free will, and I am responsible for my actions.  And determinism is certainly different from fatalism - we live in a probabalistic universe after all, where anything allowed by the laws of physics can happen, but some events are incredibly unlikely.

You clearly don't get this.

Every choice you make is a product of prior causes. You are a product of biology and environment. They make up who you are and every decision you make is a consequence of those two factors. And you weren't responsible for either of them.

Give me an example of a single choice you could make or action you could take that is not the result of your genes or your environment.

It's a simple request. I'm asking for just one. If you can give me one, you have done what no one in history has been able to do and disproved determinism.
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Caz
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Re: Free will « Reply #401 on: March 08, 2013, 08:19 AM »
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My belief is that before we are born, we each 'choose' the life we want to live in order to learn the lessons we need to progress. So actually, we 'do' get to choose both our genes and our environment, as well as the path our life will take! Now that's what I call 'free will'!  I know people will not agree, but that's ok! I'm merely stating my point of view!
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #402 on: March 08, 2013, 11:56 AM »
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My belief is that before we are born, we each 'choose' the life we want to live in order to learn the lessons we need to progress. So actually, we 'do' get to choose both our genes and our environment, as well as the path our life will take! Now that's what I call 'free will'!  I know people will not agree, but that's ok! I'm merely stating my point of view!

I don't even know where to begin.
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Free will « Reply #403 on: March 08, 2013, 12:32 PM »
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In Buddhism we believe in reincarnation. We do in fact believe in good and evil. According to the life we have led is dependent on how we are reborn many come back as human beings and other as animals. If we have attained nirvana we are not reborn. Buddhist believe in The Wheel of Life it shows the various steps of life we go through. It is too difficult to explain but if anyone is interested you could see it online. I am sure you will find it interesting.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #404 on: March 08, 2013, 06:22 PM »
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Did I just read someone say that we choose our genes? Nah, must be because I'm tired.
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