Andy Murray vs Nick Kyrgios, Saturday, Time - 10:00am BST - Discuss the match
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Free will

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Yes. Logic says it's simply a result of advanced brain development. But it's still a pretty big mystery.

It's a mystery in the sense that it isn't particularly well defined. We know enough to be able to say with some confidence that consciousness is a product of the brain.

But even if that wasn't the case, how would a full understanding of consciousness change anything? It's impossible to imagine any revelation about consciousness that would impact the discussion.
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But surely I can select from my environment - favour some bits - ignore other bits - ignore my age!!!   

But the environment and your genes make you who you are, including the choices you make.
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We know enough to be able to say with some confidence that consciousness is a product of the brain.
Yeah, some confidence. Which is why I'd like a full understanding first.

But even if that wasn't the case, how would a full understanding of consciousness change anything?
Because people generally believe free will comes from our consciousness, our soul. So until we can actually fully understand that, I don't think it's right to consider the no free will theory as fact even though it seems inevitable. Of course, an undisputed scientific experiment would be something I'd take instead.
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Yes that's pretty much it. Humans are an assembly of natural materials shaped by a genetic code acting upon the surrounding environment.

We're not acting on the environment. It's a reflexive process. The environment acts on us, shaping who we are, and we act on the environment.

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Because people generally believe free will comes from our consciousness, our soul. So until we can actually fully understand that, I don't think it's right to consider the no free will theory as fact. Of course, an undisputed scientific theory would be something I'd take instead.

Like what, though? We still didn't choose anything related to our consciousness. Can you even imagine a revelation about consciousness that would be significant to the debate, no matter how absurd?

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More to say your genes and environment produce your brain (and in turn your conciousness). This brain then reacts in specific ways based on it's inter-connected structure to internal and external stimuli. One such reaction is what you end up perceiving as a 'decision'.
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More to say your genes and environment produce your brain (and in turn your conciousness). This brain then reacts in specific ways based on it's inter-connected structure to internal and external stimuli. One such reaction is what you end up perceiving as a 'decision'.

Precisely.
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We're not acting on the environment ...  ...  and we act on the environment.
: P
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: P

I mean that it's not just us acting on the environment, since it determines how we interact with it.
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Like what, though? We still didn't choose anything related to our consciousness. Can you even imagine a revelation about consciousness that would be significant to the debate, no matter how absurd?
The capacity of my imagination shouldn't really take away from why a full understanding is a requirement for me to consider this theory fact. Before I consider anything fact, I want each notable factor involved to be fully understood.

I'm not playing the gaps though because I'm still siding with no free will based on the logic.
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I'm sorry I'm late to the party.
In between watching the tennis, I just checked in to see if anyone has posted on this thread.
I see it has been busy.

Just wanted to pick up on a couple of points I read in the previous pages:

- I am a cancer survivor. Big deal. As far as I'm concerned it's just been a part of my life, although in anyway shape or form would I have chosen this. There has been cancer in my family, but no-one has had my cancer (Hodgkins).

- As I said.. I am a so-called 'survivor', although frankly, that term has never sat well with me. I have always said I surrendered myself to the treatment. What else could I do? Does this mean I chose to survive? I certainly don't believe this will make me a better candidate for any future 'afterlife.'

- My son has a cognitive disorder. Would I have chosen this for him? Would he have chosen it?. .perhaps not, but I feel enriched by his presence in my life. You need to ask him how he feels about it, but we've tried very hard to bring him up to feel positive about himself, and that his disability was akin to someone needing to wear glasses to see better. No biggie.
Did I do anything to make my son's disorder happen? I dunno.. but if I'm honest, I can see shadows of autism in our family on both sides.. so there's the genetic side sorted.

I do strongly feel that if his skills were to be applied in an environment where he is comfortale, he would blossom and grow. Just as I'm sure most of us would.

I was brought up in an incredibly strict, incredibly religious, incredibly confusing environment. Somehow I have found humour, open-mindedness, and a thirst for knowledge.

I believe I will live this life the best I can, and then that is it. I am gone forever, except for what I leave behind, be it my words here, photos, memories of others, perhaps a stone in my honour if that makes my loved ones feel better.

And I am absolutely fine with it.
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I mean that it's not just us acting on the environment, since it determines how we interact with it.
Reacting on, reacting with, reacting to; it's all the same thing. Our genes are the environment also, they're a part of it. The genes react a certain way to incoming resources and in turn give shape onto those resources based on the gene's structure (which is what I meant), I guess reacting 'with' encompassing it more clearly.
[ Last edit by laundry March 10, 2013, 01:29 AM ] IP Logged
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I say we hold judgement until we've heard what Deepak Chopra has to say on this matter.
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The capacity of my imagination shouldn't really take away from why a full understanding is a requirement for me to consider this theory fact.
Our imagination is still certainly just a generated perception reacting to internal and external stimuli.

As far as what consciousness actually is, I really like this TED talk on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMrzdk_YnYY?
To me conciousness really doesn't seem that foreign, it appears at it's essence to simply be an internal feed-back loop; basing a thought initially from an external source of stimuli then reacting to a constant internal feed-back of processed information.
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I say we hold judgement until we've heard what Deepak Chopra has to say on this matter.

Agreed.

There's actually a Twitter account that makes random Deepak quotes based on profound-sounding tweets he makes. They are indistinguishable from some of his actual quotes.

https://twitter.com/WisdomOfChopra
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