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Free will

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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Free will « Reply #525 on: March 10, 2013, 02:25 AM »
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I was Christ's Catholic Child-Bride.. dress, veil and all.. at age 7.

What can you say?..

Talk to you tomorrow.
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #526 on: March 10, 2013, 02:45 AM »
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The natural disposition to believe and follow the authority of your parents is heavily engrained into pretty much everybody, and for obvious reasons, but the ability for independent thought is also highly useful. As such evolution has wound up shaping a rich variety of brain 'types' which have different tolerance levels to these conflicting components and also many other components. Like with all social creatures this serves to benefit the over-all make-up of the society by producing members with varying skill sets.
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Caz
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I'd like to be the good person my dog thinks I am!

Re: Free will « Reply #527 on: March 10, 2013, 10:59 AM »
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I was Christ's Catholic Child-Bride.. dress, veil and all.. at age 7.

What can you say?..

Talk to you tomorrow.
Me too Scot.......twice! First Communion and then Confirmation! The whole bridal thing seems a bit 'icky' to me now!
[ Last edit by Caz March 10, 2013, 11:07 AM ] IP Logged
Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #528 on: March 10, 2013, 11:29 AM »
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Ok, let's go with that. Do you choose which restaurants you like? Do you choose which food tastes good to you?
  In a general sense, of course, I choose what I look the look of.  Go on.
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #529 on: March 10, 2013, 11:41 AM »
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But we didn't choose anything related to our consciousness. I don't see how it's relevant. Even if it isn't a product of the brain, it doesn't change anything about the debate.

Where would choice come into any revelation about consciousness? What you're saying doesn't really make sense.
It seems traditionally our consciousness/soul is always assigned as the source of free will. And for that reason, for me at least, we should completely rule it out as such before stating the no free will theory as irrefutable fact. Alternatively, an undisputed scientific experiment would suffice. That's my opinion and we disagree on it. I won't bother discussing further because I know better when it comes to the both of us.

Remember James, infinity grows through intricate experiences and our consciousness is the continuity of species specific possibilities Wink
[ Last edit by Mark March 10, 2013, 11:54 AM ] IP Logged
Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #530 on: March 10, 2013, 12:52 PM »
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  In a general sense, of course, I choose what I look the look of.  Go on.

I'm sorry, but how can you choose what you like? You don't "decide" to like something. For example, you don't "choose" to like pizza. You simply either like it or you don't, so claiming that you choose what you like is a completely disingenuous claim.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #531 on: March 10, 2013, 03:11 PM »
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I can at least choose between two pizzas.    That is beginning to feel like a small triumph.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #532 on: March 10, 2013, 05:04 PM »
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I can at least choose between two pizzas.    That is beginning to feel like a small triumph.

No idea why you would think that.

Why would you "choose" one over the other? What would make you choose ham instead of pepperoni?
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #533 on: March 10, 2013, 05:49 PM »
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I'm sorry, but how can you choose what you like? You don't "decide" to like something. For example, you don't "choose" to like pizza. You simply either like it or you don't, so claiming that you choose what you like is a completely disingenuous claim.
  Two points - I can have a range of choices that I know I like, and there are others that I may not know if I like, but am willing to take a gamble on. That would give me, let's say, three options at least. What next?
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #534 on: March 10, 2013, 05:52 PM »
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The attributes for each pizza (such as composition, appearance, cost, smell, etc) will be relayed by your sensory system into your brain. Your brain will then process this information based entirely on it's overall (but of course incredibly complicated) structure; including the concious processing and memory systems. An inevitable preference (among other things such as forecasted predictions and value assessments) will be acquired from this and these outcomes are first  retained in your concious and memory systems and then relayed into your motor neuron networks. From here, again based purely on it's structure, an inevitable response will occur in the form of impulse signals sent to your body (and responses in turn are sent back to your memory and concious network systems).

This entire process is what you will actively perceive within your memory and consciousness as making a calculated choice and acting upon it.

What it comes down to is: given whatever possible input parameters you like your brain will always end up producing a particular fixed reaction after processing them because that overall process is dependent entirely upon the structure of your brain at that given point time.
[ Last edit by laundry March 10, 2013, 05:55 PM ] IP Logged
Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #535 on: March 10, 2013, 06:05 PM »
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  Two points - I can have a range of choices that I know I like, and there are others that I may not know if I like, but am willing to take a gamble on. That would give me, let's say, three options at least. What next?

But at any given time, you will make one choice. It's not about the options that are available. Again, you are confusing choice with free will.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #536 on: March 10, 2013, 06:05 PM »
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What it comes down to is: given whatever possible input parameters you like your brain will always end up producing a particular fixed reaction after processing them because that overall process is dependent entirely upon the structure of your brain at that given point time.
  Even if I were to accept that sequence of variables,  inputs and outcomes as valid, you cannot conclude that I will always react in the same way, because each situation is unique and cannot be repeated, therefore cannot be tested. Therefore you cannot say that I would choose one course of action over others every time if everything was the same. It never is. In a hypothetical situation where I had a choice between two absolutely identical pizzas with all other considerations being absolutely equivalent, what would I do? Starve to death through indecision?
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Re: Free will « Reply #537 on: March 10, 2013, 06:09 PM »
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But at any given time, you will make one choice. It's not about the options that are available. Again, you are confusing choice with free will.
  I'm sorry, you've lost me. I exercise free will in making one choice over a number of others of equivalent merit.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #538 on: March 10, 2013, 06:13 PM »
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  I'm sorry, you've lost me. I exercise free will in making one choice over a number of others of equivalent merit.

No, you don't. It's about why that choice is made. It's about the type of person you are and the factors that cause you to make a given choice.

It's clear that you just can't grasp this concept.
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #539 on: March 10, 2013, 06:14 PM »
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  Even if I were to accept that sequence of variables,  inputs and outcomes as valid, you cannot conclude that I will always react in the same way, because each situation is unique and cannot be repeated, therefore cannot be tested. Therefore you cannot say that I would choose one course of action over others every time if everything was the same. It never is. In a hypothetical situation where I had a choice between two absolutely identical pizzas with all other considerations being absolutely equivalent, what would I do? Starve to death through indecision?

Again, you just don't get it. I see no point in wasting any more time trying to explain a concept to someone who is not equipped to grasp it.
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