Andy Murray vs Teymuraz Gabashvili, Time - 12:30am BST tonight - Discuss the match

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Free will

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Again, you just don't get it. I see no point in wasting any more time trying to explain a concept to someone who is not equipped to grasp it.
  Don't ever be tempted to go into teaching then. I will be blunt and tell you that I am insulted that you should deem me to be incapable of grasping a concept that you cannot prove. I won't waste anymore of your valuable time, ass****.
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You cannot conclude that I will always react in the same way, because each situation is unique and cannot be repeated, therefore cannot be tested. Therefore you cannot say that I would choose one course of action over others every time if everything was the same. It never is.
It's just obvious that you would always react the same, it's a fundamental property of the science - that things react in specific way under the laws of physics. If the entire system processes of your brain were understood and every bit of information about the environment was known you could predict precisely the resultant outcome just as you can with any other physical system*.

*This is without bringing quantum physics into the equation, however there is no plausible way to pertain free will from random quantum outcomes since your brain has no control over the events.
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  Don't ever be tempted to go into teaching then. I will be blunt and tell you that I am insulted that you should deem me to be incapable of grasping a concept that you cannot prove. I won't waste anymore of your valuable time, a**hole.

I can teach people who are interested in being taught. I have spent the last several pages trying to explain a concept which you, by your own admission, can't grasp.

Either you're not equipped to understand it or you are being wilfully ignorant. Whatever the case, I see no point in wasting my time.

If you actually do want to learn more, try reading Free Will by Sam Harris or watch some of his videos online. Perhaps he will have more luck.

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It's just obvious that you would always react the same, it's a fundamental property of the science - that things react in specific way under the laws of physics. If the entire system processes of your brain were understood and every bit of information about the environment was known you could predict precisely the resultant outcome just as you can with any other physical system*.

*This is without bringing quantum physics into the equation, however there is no plausible way to pertain free will from random quantum outcomes since your brain has no control over the events.
  I understand exactly where you're coming from, but that is a very bold assertion, even discounting the quantum fluctuation qualification.  At the level the human brain and conciousness works there is no way you can be prescriptive about such a simple thing as choosing a pizza. It is a cardinal error to extrapolate our current understanding oif the nature of mind and consciousness to a series of prescribed steps.  Give me proof, or even a testable hypothesis, and perhaps we can move on.
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Well taking an uncertainty of quantum physics into account you would only be able to predict the probabilities of every possible outcome occurring, then the overall result that occurs will be random based on the result of whatever quantum outcomes affect the system.

Also I highly, highly doubt (despite what's so commonly thrown about by these retarded popular 'scientists') that a specific large macro change (such as actually changing the overall choice of pizza) could arise very often from different paths of quantum outcomes occurring. But this is irrelevant to any points being made, I thought I'd just throw it in since it annoys me when I hear people saying it all the time.

In a hypothetical situation where I had a choice between two absolutely identical pizzas with all other considerations being absolutely equivalent, what would I do? Starve to death through indecision?
Oh to answer this, well yeah no two pizzas could ever be exactly identical as they would need to have different locations and this information will always factor in to how the brain reacts.
[ Last edit by laundry March 10, 2013, 07:03 PM ] IP Logged
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It is a cardinal error to extrapolate our current understanding of the nature of mind and consciousness to a series of prescribed steps.
I'm describing the steps based solely on the current knowledge of the mind, we know a fair amount about the steps the brain takes but just little to nothing of the intricacies and connective network compared to the vast connected complexity the brain exhibits. In any case the steps are not important, the only thing that matters to this debate is that the brain is a physical object and as such the processes that it exhibits when interacting with the environment are governed entirely by the laws of physics just as any other physical system is.
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Why are you clever people posting on M.W........Ah, free will....gotcha
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Oh to answer this, well yeah no two pizzas could ever be exactly identical as they would need to have different locations and this information will always factor in to how the brain reacts.


If Fiverings is blindfolded and told and believes the pizzas are identical, how would his brain react?
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If Fiverings is blindfolded and told and believes the pizzas are identical, how would his brain react?
How would he indicate which pizza he had chosen?
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Far too technical for me. I am afraid very few of us have free will when choice is restricted.
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Far too technical for me. I am afraid very few of us have free will when choice is restricted.
Oh, L.B.   you shouldn't have gone there . doh
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How would he indicate which pizza he had chosen?

That's not what I want to know.    I wondered how his brain would react.
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That's not what I want to know.    I wondered how his brain would react.
His brain will react to information based on how the pizzas were presented to him. In the case that he was told 'there is pizza 1 and pizza 2 which one do you want?' his brain would likely react most the numbers assigned to the pizzas. In the case that the pizzas were put in front of him one at a time and he was just asked 'this one' or 'this one', then he would react largely to the sequential order that the pizzas were presented.

There will always be information presented to him which differentiates the pizza, and if there isn't he won't be able to indicate a choice. For example if no information was provided a conversation would go like this:

"Pick a pizza"
'wut, what pizza?'
"we have pizzas just pick one!"
'erm ok I'll whichever one you think is best'
"no, you have to pick"
'I don't care, just give me whatever I have no information to go on'

If forced to it he simply won't be able to make a choice if are there are no options available to indicate the choice.
[ Last edit by laundry March 10, 2013, 08:18 PM ] IP Logged
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I think his brain would go into meltdown.   
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I'd take the two pizzas and wrap them round all of your chops.  Now - that's 'free will'.
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