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Free will

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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #555 on: March 10, 2013, 08:51 PM »
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I'd take the two pizzas and wrap them round all of your chops.  Now - that's 'free will'.

That is the most sensible idea in about half a dozen pages.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #556 on: March 10, 2013, 09:15 PM »
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I think his brain would go into meltdown.   
Sticking tongue out.
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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Free will « Reply #557 on: March 11, 2013, 02:51 AM »
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It's about the type of person you are and the factors that cause you to make a given choice.

Given my confusing life factors, what do you think made me the type of person I am?
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Caz
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I'd like to be the good person my dog thinks I am!

Re: Free will « Reply #558 on: March 11, 2013, 08:26 AM »
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  Even if I were to accept that sequence of variables,  inputs and outcomes as valid, you cannot conclude that I will always react in the same way, because each situation is unique and cannot be repeated, therefore cannot be tested. Therefore you cannot say that I would choose one course of action over others every time if everything was the same. It never is. In a hypothetical situation where I had a choice between two absolutely identical pizzas with all other considerations being absolutely equivalent, what would I do? Starve to death through indecision?
Well Fiverings, you could always use the 'eeny meeny miney mo' method!  Whistle
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #559 on: March 11, 2013, 08:41 AM »
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Well Fiverings, you could always use the 'eeny meeny miney mo' method!  Whistle

That was my thought Caz.   But that would have come from your environment rather than your genes.    However it would mean that you have not matured properly and "put away childish things" and for that I could blame my genes but you couldn't, having chosen your genes.    Ain't life complicated!!!!
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Caz
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I'd like to be the good person my dog thinks I am!

Re: Free will « Reply #560 on: March 11, 2013, 09:24 AM »
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That's true, but would life really be worth living without a few 'childish things' now and then? I'd like to think a little bit of the child remains in all of us........otherwise, we'd all turn into a load of old grumps!  lmao
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #561 on: March 11, 2013, 09:41 AM »
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 Whistle
That's true, but would life really be worth living without a few 'childish things' now and then? I'd like to think a little bit of the child remains in all of us........otherwise, we'd all turn into a load of old grumps!  lmao

And there are enough of them around as it is.    Whistle
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Free will « Reply #562 on: March 11, 2013, 01:14 PM »
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Why should'nt I have gone there Robbie, this is a very deep discussion maybe if you and all the brain boxes made it a bit easier to understand. As far as I am concerned we all do not have free will. You are restricted by how wealthy you are and your genes. Ordinary working people have little free will when boils down to it.
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blueberryhill
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Re: Free will « Reply #563 on: March 11, 2013, 01:33 PM »
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That's true, but would life really be worth living without a few 'childish things' now and then? I'd like to think a little bit of the child remains in all of us........otherwise, we'd all turn into a load of old grumps!  lmao

"Play" is so important for adults as well as children. Ask any shrink.
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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Free will « Reply #564 on: March 11, 2013, 01:45 PM »
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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Free will « Reply #565 on: March 11, 2013, 02:57 PM »
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Given my confusing life factors, what do you think made me the type of person I am?

I would say you are the person you are because of the way you reacted to and dealt with your confusing life factors.    I've no idea if that is because of your genes as you would have to know how your progenitors would have dealt with similar problems.   You can guess but I don't think there is any way of knowing.    You have obviously gone through a lot.    Has it made you a better person?    Probably but was it worth the suffering to become the person you are now.    To me that is much more interesting than choosing pizzas.   I travelled the First Communion and Confirmation route also.    I have to say I enjoyed it at the time but have left it behind now.
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laundry
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Re: Free will « Reply #566 on: March 11, 2013, 03:34 PM »
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Given my confusing life factors, what do you think made me the type of person I am?
Nobody but yourself is really going to be in a position to answer that.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #567 on: March 11, 2013, 04:24 PM »
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Nope.

Presumably you're going to ask why I get mad when he isn't playing well, then?

But did I not say that already? In fact, you took long enough time to reply that but only to repeat my own post.

You got me. That thought had never, ever occurred to me.

As usual, you miss the point, Emma Jean.

I'm not preaching anything. Not once have I said that everyone should just relax and take things as they come, since we're not responsible for any of it. The point is that we feel like we have free will. You cannot just ignore that feeling even though, when examined, it is an illusion.

There are many, many things that make no sense in light of the truth of determinism. For example, I take pride in my work, even if I am not ultimately responsible for it.

And I'm not sure how you can call the discussion pointless, Mark. It might be frustrating, but lack of free will has consequences.

You say my world is void of logic – well, if we live in a meaningless world then why should you care if my world is void of logic let alone piss you off? In fact, I myself could care less what kind of world I live in given your premise.

But anyway, since you are the epitome of logic, where do you see logic in the highlighted post of yours? More importantly, why should anyone subscribe to a model that doesn’t make any sense half the time? That doesn’t explain why we do things and feel things when we are not responsible for them in the first place.  If determinism is the true reality then all other things should remain explained as I see it and as it should be. If it doesn’t then the concept is either flawed or not true at all.
 
Finally, what caused the Big Bang?
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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #568 on: March 11, 2013, 04:38 PM »
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"Though we feel we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets" - Stephen Hawking
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #569 on: March 11, 2013, 05:13 PM »
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Some of the quotes I have gathtered in my idle time.

"The problem is more our simplistic conception of causation, rather than any mysterious aspect of the universe. We base our idea of what a cause/effect is, on a very narrow and primitive band of experience. The Quantum and Cosmic worlds are just now opening our eyes to how limited our view is. When talking authoritatively about cause/effect, we should limit ourselves to only what we know, and that is direct human experience. When non-locality, singularities, and relativity, enter into the equation, we really don't know much more than equations which are descriptive, but are lacking in explanatory power."

"I think everyday causality is an aspect of how the universe works, but where it fits in the bigger picture is anybody's guess."

"There is no causal infinite regress (there is an Unmoved Mover, or several of them: uncaused processes that start a causal chain) - quasi-causality: we need to find rules for causal interaction and a mechanism of distinction between caused and uncaused processes. "

"We need to come up with an entirely new "mechanism" to substitute causality and better describe the universe. it's fairly certain that our reality is ruled by both top-down and down-up causation and I'd be inclined to think that the macro-scale order emerges as a result of intrinsic properties of the quantum fields (i view all the laws of physics as essential inherent properties of the quantum fields that in certain occasions manifest as 'particles' and physical objects). So, in this respect, emergent properties (top down causation) are probably also an inherent component of the quantum fields as well (though they seem like true magic from our point of view). Clearly, our world is mostly what it is because of interactions at the quantum scale (plus a bit of oddity and illusion on part of consciousness). The concepts of space, time and continues motion aren't really what they appear to be at our scale. In fact, this contradiction is not just in minor details but is quite fundamental, because quantum mechanics requires reality to be discontinuous, non-causal, and  nonlocal, whereas relativity theory requires reality to be continuous, causal, and local. This oddity can be patched up in a few cases using mathematical renormalization, but this approach is awkward and is very likely to be replaced when we have a theory of quantum gravity that would tell us more about the nature of space. What does this have to do with your question? If you can picture the true nature of reality as the water in the ocean, if you gaze at it, at some point our world would appear as appearances of figures and objects in the chaos of the moving waters. And out of this 'quantum soup' appears a totally deterministic orderly world that follows Newton's laws. But peep a bit to left or right, and you'll see the chaos raging. Clearly, cause-effect determinism is mostly a macroscopic manifestation, and our perceived world is mostly deterministic. But so are the quantum particles that make up our world, they obey the deterministic Schroedinger  equation. If anything can challenge this - it would be emergent properties like consciousness and the idea of associated free will."
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