Home Search Calendar Help Login Register
Did you miss your activation email?
MurraysWorld Discussions  >  General Community  >  Chit Chat  >  Free will 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 37 38 39 [40] 41 42 43 44 Go Down Reply
Author

Free will

 (Read 9387 times)
Fiverings
ATP Level
***
Posts: 2,784

Gender: Male
Location: Ayrshire


Andy Murray - Tennis Legend

Re: Free will « Reply #585 on: March 11, 2013, 11:42 PM »
Reply

Any prior cause to the big bang would be the resultant act of determinism, which in turn makes determinism the unpinning cause of the big bang. Everything is caused by determinism, it's a fundamental truth of existence.

Even if you believe in God, God's existence is the result of determinism... if God exists surely he was always going to exists, there's no way he could possibly not exist, he would have been always destined to exist.

The same applies to the big bang, given that it happened: how could it possibly have not happened? There was no possible way that the big bang could not have occurred otherwise it wouldn't have done. Somehow, whateverhow, it was and is possible for the existence of the big bang and our universe to occur and as such it has resulted so.
    You have put yourself outside an event that has brought into existence all that you know or ever will know, which is a tiny fraction of the totality, and declared how it came to be. The infinite complexities of the universe  - eleven dimensions, I believe is the latest estimate - cannot be prescribed by  anyone. The best we can do is grope towards them with open minds. Every event has a prior cause in the physical universe we now inhabit/understand, but ultimately we come up against an initiating "event" which is utterly beyond our human comprehension and cannot be framed by any human logic, however sophisticated.
IP Logged
Mark
Murraymaniac
*
Posts: 53,078

Gender: Male
Location: London


Re: Free will « Reply #586 on: March 11, 2013, 11:43 PM »
Reply

It is a theory until it is proved.    Or is God a logically founded axiom?
It is a hypothesis. It has yet to earn the right of theory status.

If and when the hypothesis is proven, it will then be a theory, scientifically speaking.
IP Logged
scotnadian
World No 1
*******
Posts: 12,456

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto


Give me your JMac, Henman, Cash & 2 balls.

Re: Free will « Reply #587 on: March 11, 2013, 11:49 PM »
Reply

This is an honest, respectful post.

What does 'God' mean to you?
IP Logged
scotnadian
World No 1
*******
Posts: 12,456

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto


Give me your JMac, Henman, Cash & 2 balls.

Re: Free will « Reply #588 on: March 11, 2013, 11:50 PM »
Reply

My last post was open to anyone interested in responding.
IP Logged
Iluvandy
Seed
****
Posts: 4,796

Gender: Female
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #589 on: March 12, 2013, 12:00 AM »
Reply

I don't know now to be honest.    At one time I suppose he/it was a crutch, a comfort, a reason for why I was here - now I just don't know.    I find atheism a bit cold though but that is just a feeling.    I'm big on feelings.
IP Logged
Mark
Murraymaniac
*
Posts: 53,078

Gender: Male
Location: London


Re: Free will « Reply #590 on: March 12, 2013, 12:01 AM »
Reply

What does 'God' mean to you?
He killed himself so I could have eternal life, innit.
IP Logged
laundry
Top Seed
*****
Posts: 5,671

Gender: Male
Location: Lincolnshire


Re: Free will « Reply #591 on: March 12, 2013, 12:09 AM »
Reply

Or is God a logically founded axiom?
Not given the overall description of God by religions, I would probably say those Gods are more of an illogical fallacy :lol:

But if he was to exist in the way that religions say so then yes in essence he would be, or more aptly: instead of a logically founded axiom he would be a God founded axiom - "God exists in and of himself".

The very notion of a logically founded axiom is that it is proved onto itself. If determinism is not proven, then nothing can be proven. Trying to prove determinism is true in such a sense as you are suggesting would be like trying to prove logical consistency is true. And trust me you would have a hard time proving logical consistency holds true without using logical consistency to formulate such a proof.

The overall logical foundation to the proposed existence of God and an existence without God only differs by one proposal simply being without the need for a God. Religions say God exists in and of himself, whereas non-religion says existence simply exists in and of itself. They're both definitely on the money with that one, it's just a shame that religious concept start to go a little bit crazy after that point :D
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 12:41 AM ] IP Logged
Iluvandy
Seed
****
Posts: 4,796

Gender: Female
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #592 on: March 12, 2013, 12:14 AM »
Reply

It sounds very like "so you pays your money and you takes your choice."
IP Logged
Clydey
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 22,179

Gender: Male
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #593 on: March 12, 2013, 10:36 AM »
Reply

Given my confusing life factors, what do you think made me the type of person I am?

It would be impossible for me to say. I doubt anyone on the planet would be able to give you a good answer to that question, unfortunately.
IP Logged
Clydey
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 22,179

Gender: Male
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #594 on: March 12, 2013, 10:46 AM »
Reply

But did I not say that already? In fact, you took long enough time to reply that but only to repeat my own post.

I was obviously replying to an earlier post, on a separate page.

Quote
You say my world is void of logic – well, if we live in a meaningless world then why should you care if my world is void of logic let alone piss you off? In fact, I myself could care less what kind of world I live in given your premise.

Because the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us that we don't live our lives in a nihilistic fashion.

Quote
But anyway, since you are the epitome of logic, where do you see logic in the highlighted post of yours?

There is no logic in it. I'm an extremely logical person, but I'm not a robot. I can recognise that free will is an illusion and still not be conscious of that fact for most of the day. I don't walk around constantly thinking, "I have no free will!"

As above, the idea that we consciously author our actions is such a strong intuition that we feel as though it's true, even when we know that it is false.

Quote
More importantly, why should anyone subscribe to a model that doesn’t make any sense half the time?


When doesn't it make sense?

Quote
That doesn’t explain why we do things and feel things when we are not responsible for them in the first place.  If determinism is the true reality then all other things should remain explained as I see it and as it should be. If it doesn’t then the concept is either flawed or not true at all.

I'm not following your reasoning here.
 
Quote
Finally, what caused the Big Bang?

Ask a physicist.
IP Logged
Clydey
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 22,179

Gender: Male
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #595 on: March 12, 2013, 10:48 AM »
Reply

It is a theory until it is proved.    Or is God a logically founded axiom?

You don't understand how the word "theory" is used in science. Evolution is a "theory" and has been proven.
IP Logged
laundry
Top Seed
*****
Posts: 5,671

Gender: Male
Location: Lincolnshire


Re: Free will « Reply #596 on: March 12, 2013, 11:23 AM »
Reply

It sounds very like "so you pays your money and you takes your choice."
The thing is the explanation as to why anything is here, why an initial entity exists has to be self-asserting, no matter what angle you look at it. Where it would apprehendable using self-assertion in general scientific or mathematical proofs it is completely necessary when it comes to axiomatic laws.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 12:39 PM ] IP Logged
Iluvandy
Seed
****
Posts: 4,796

Gender: Female
Location: Scotland


Re: Free will « Reply #597 on: March 12, 2013, 12:22 PM »
Reply

You don't understand how the word "theory" is used in science. Evolution is a "theory" and has been proven.

Mark has already pointed that out.    I'm not accustomed to sciencespeak (thank whoever is up there) and I've checked Chambers which defines "theory" as "a series of ideas and general principles which seek to explain some aspect of the world".    I don't view scientists as all-knowing so I'll stick with Chambers' definition.     Your
posts come over as a bit patronising.
IP Logged
Mark
Murraymaniac
*
Posts: 53,078

Gender: Male
Location: London


Re: Free will « Reply #598 on: March 12, 2013, 12:53 PM »
Reply

Your posts come over as a bit patronising.
Just wait until he uses your first name in every post during an argument Very Happy
IP Logged
laundry
Top Seed
*****
Posts: 5,671

Gender: Male
Location: Lincolnshire


Re: Free will « Reply #599 on: March 12, 2013, 12:57 PM »
Reply

Determinism is not just a scientific theory though. It could possibly be scientifically proven to the extent that any other scientific theory is proven, perhaps; but regardless of our science it is fundamentally logically proven through a necessary logical consistency.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 01:07 PM ] IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 37 38 39 [40] 41 42 43 44 Go Up Reply 
« previous next »