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Free will

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Just wait until he uses your first name in every post during an argument Very Happy

I'll keep that a secret then.   Anyway it was a bit of a throwaway remark.   It doesn't bother me really if someone tries to patronise me.   
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Mark has already pointed that out.    I'm not accustomed to sciencespeak (thank whoever is up there) and I've checked Chambers which defines "theory" as "a series of ideas and general principles which seek to explain some aspect of the world".    I don't view scientists as all-knowing so I'll stick with Chambers' definition.     Your
posts come over as a bit patronising.

There are different uses for the word. A theory in scientific terms is essentially the pinnacle of a hypothesis, so to speak.

And laundry is right on this one, when he says that it is proven through logic. Asking for an experiment, as some have, is like asking for someone to set up an experiment that proves that 2+2= 4.
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I'll keep that a secret then.   Anyway it was a bit of a throwaway remark.   It doesn't bother me really if someone tries to patronise me.   

I'm not trying to patronise you.
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Asking for an experiment, as some have, is like asking for someone to set up an experiment that proves that 2+2= 4.

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Indeed, as all scientific proof relies on determinism holding true. If any result isn't determinable then nothing is scientifically deductible.
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If any result isn't determinable then nothing is scientifically deductible.

The double-slit experiment is not exactly determinable.
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..
I'm not trying to patronise you.

If you start a sentence with "You don't understand" it comes over as patronising even if it isn't meant.
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If you start a sentence with "You don't understand" it comes over as patronising even if it isn't meant.
Agreed and this is just one of James' weaknesses but we all have 'em Smile
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The double-slit experiment is not exactly determinable.
Yes it is, the result is probabilistically determinable. As - given that quantum physics is the under-lying mechanism in the universe - all results of any experiment are probabilistically determinable to us. Like I said if you for some reason think that the double-slit experiment is not determinable then by extension nothing we scientifically measure would be determinable.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 01:53 PM ] IP Logged
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Agreed and this is just one of James' weaknesses but we all have 'em Smile

"just one".    Do you know them all?   Can you prove scientifically that we all have them?
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Right. And what caused that?

Determinism.

Determinism can't cause Determinism again if the idea already exists. No point causing Determinism after Determinism after Determinism once it's already there.

Anyway, give me your version of Determinism.
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I was obviously replying to an earlier post, on a separate page.

Because the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us that we don't live our lives in a nihilistic fashion.

There is no logic in it. I'm an extremely logical person, but I'm not a robot. I can recognise that free will is an illusion and still not be conscious of that fact for most of the day. I don't walk around constantly thinking, "I have no free will!"

As above, the idea that we consciously author our actions is such a strong intuition that we feel as though it's true, even when we know that it is false.

Ask a physicist.

If we are a part of the same nature/pattern (Determinism) then why the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us? Shouldn't that be a part of the very pattern as well; therefore, we shouldn’t feel or even be aware of the notion that we have free will? Why this very pattern would then create such contradiction within itself?

And I don't see why I should ask a Physicist when you are the one who is fully determined on the ancient concept that every event has a prior cause that causes the event itself. The Big Bang happens to be the biggest event that has ever happened to our knowledge so I need to what caused it. You, of all people, should know.
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Anyway, give me your version of Determinism.
That everything is the result of logical consistency and any laws derived from logic.

Or in other words: logical consistency and to follow the laws of nature derived from logic will determine, and solely determine every causality.
[ Last edit by laundry March 12, 2013, 04:45 PM ] IP Logged
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That everything is the result of logical consistency and to follow any laws derived from logic.

Or in other words: logical consistency and the derived laws of nature from it will determine, and solely determine every causality.

So you are saying this idea of ‘logical consistency’ existed before the Big Bang and this idea or logic essentially caused the event of the Universe that we live in right now?
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If we are a part of the same nature/pattern (Determinism) then why the intuition that life has meaning is so deeply ingrained in us? Shouldn't that be a part of the very pattern as well; therefore, we shouldn’t feel or even be aware of the notion that we have free will? Why this very pattern would then create such contradiction within itself?

Because most people don't think about it. And those who do think about it, don't do so until they are older. By that time, we have been exposed to years of environmental pressure that reinforces the idea that we have free will.

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And I don't see why I should ask a Physicist when you are the one who is fully determined on the ancient concept that every event has a prior cause that causes the event itself.

When did I say that everything has a prior cause? Our actions certainly all have prior causes. However, the idea that everything has a prior cause is a pitfall in our thinking because we are pattern-seeking creatures. There is no reason not to think that the universe, even prior to the big bang, existed in some form.

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The Big Bang happens to be the biggest event that has ever happened to our knowledge so I need to what caused it. You, of all people, should know.

Why should I know? I'm not a physicist. Go tweet Lawrence Krauss.
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