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Free will

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Mark
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Re: Free will « Reply #630 on: March 12, 2013, 05:25 PM »
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This Chopra is good.
You've got to talk in Emma's language, you see.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #631 on: March 12, 2013, 05:29 PM »
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You have just asserted something without providing anything approaching proof. I can't help but think that you view the universe as a conscious entity.

No, it doesn't. It has nothing to do with my question. We know, logically, that all of our actions have prior causes simply by virtue of the fact that we have ancestors. That cannot be applied to the universe.

Keep trying, though.


I am fairly sure at this point that you know nothing. You are harping on an ancient idea that was cooked in the 16tth century by Newton and then was modernized in the 19th century and called it “Determinism” only to refine the idea.

What’s more, Quantum theory (and the Mechanics), Chaos theory and Uncertainty Principle (the more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa) have all dissected, killed and destroyed Determinism a long time ago.

Einstein also destroyed Newton’s absolute time theory as well and established the relative theory where time is never absolute given the point of one's reference point. This all tells us how little we know about the Universe and what’s beyond.

But you can definitely chew on the stuff you believe in I have no problems even it means you are stuck on the 19th century. I haven’t decided on anything yet simply because we don’t know everything yet. Far from it in fact.
[ Last edit by Emma Jean March 12, 2013, 05:34 PM ] IP Logged
Emma Jean
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Re: Free will « Reply #632 on: March 12, 2013, 05:33 PM »
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There wasn't ever nothing, logic has always existed and it can't not exist. I would argue further that everything that exists has always existed and will always continue to exist but that's another story.

So is logic then God? A supernatural being?
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Re: Free will « Reply #633 on: March 12, 2013, 05:36 PM »
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So is logic then God? A supernatural being?
You can call it God if you like but don't think that it cares about you and is going to send you to heaven :D
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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #634 on: March 12, 2013, 05:41 PM »
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I am fairly sure at this point that you know nothing. You are harping on an ancient idea that was cooked in the 16tth century by Newton and then was modernized in the 19th century and called it “Determinism” only to refine the idea.

What’s more, Quantum theory (and the Mechanics), Chaos theory and Uncertainty Principle (the more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa) have all dissected, killed and destroyed Determinism a long time ago.

Einstein also destroyed Newton’s absolute time theory as well and established the relative theory where time is never absolute given the point of one's reference point. This all tells us how little we know about the Universe and what’s beyond.

But you can definitely chew on the stuff you believe in I have no problems even it means you are stuck on the 19th century. I haven’t decided on anything yet simply because we don’t know everything yet. Far from it in fact.


There. Are. Different. Types. Of. Determinism.

Can I be any clearer?
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Re: Free will « Reply #635 on: March 12, 2013, 05:42 PM »
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I'm about as atheist as you can get with respect to a God proposed by religions, but I actually agree with a number of the properties that religions impose on God - but only when they are imposed onto existence itself as opposed to imposing them on a being that has a number of other illogical properties such as being loving or creating heaven/hell and other such things.
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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Free will « Reply #636 on: March 12, 2013, 05:47 PM »
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I'm currently watching Lawrence Krauss give his "Universe from Nothing" talk. (Thanks, Clydey.)

He is fascinating and entertaining. I've just got to where he talks about how we are made from atoms which came from exploding stars in different galaxies.

He's also talked about Newton, Einstein, Hubble and religion.

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Clydey
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Re: Free will « Reply #637 on: March 12, 2013, 05:49 PM »
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I'm currently watching Lawrence Krauss give his "Universe from Nothing" talk. (Thanks, Clydey.)

He is fascinating and entertaining. I've just got to where he talks about how we are made from atoms which came from exploding stars in different galaxies.

He's also talked about Newton, Einstein, Hubble and religion.



I'm watching the same video, coincidentally.
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scotnadian
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Re: Free will « Reply #638 on: March 12, 2013, 05:52 PM »
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No time to watch it all the way through right now, but I will finish it later.
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Re: Free will « Reply #639 on: March 12, 2013, 05:53 PM »
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"Logic is my God" does have a certain ring to it Smile
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #640 on: March 12, 2013, 06:14 PM »
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"Logic is my God" does have a certain ring to it Smile
  I think it was Christian Huygens that said "Science is my religion" but haven't been able to check it out.
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Re: Free will « Reply #641 on: March 12, 2013, 06:17 PM »
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An extract from the brilliant book 'Everything Forever' by Gevin Giorbran. Which is one I definitely advise reading.

The Real Nothing

Imagine you are standing in a white world, like the commercials or movies portraying heaven. In this world there is nothing but white everywhere. The oneness of white extends away from you in every direction. You try to look out into the distance, but because there is just the one color you can’t tell if the space of this world extends out forever or if its edge remains just out of reach. As you reach out your hand, you realize that your physical body provides the only sense of distance here. Your body is all that exists in a giant field of nothingness. There is no length or width beyond your body. There is no distance to anywhere else, because there isn’t anything else to measure a distance to. So if your body happens also to turn white, then suddenly all sense of dimension is erased. The very meaning of place and distance is lost. Soon even the one color of white will disappear from your experience. You will soon become blind to white, because you don’t have any other color to judge the meaning of this one color against. Soon, for you, this endless white world becomes nothing at all.

Oh and was anybody able to follow this and visualize nothingness?
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #642 on: March 12, 2013, 06:23 PM »
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Oh and was anybody able to follow this and visualize nothingness?
  How is this different from the sensory deprivation beloved of mystics in the total darkness of underground caves?
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Re: Free will « Reply #643 on: March 12, 2013, 06:32 PM »
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 How is this different from the sensory deprivation beloved of mystics in the total darkness of underground caves?
The color or senses don't matter. The purpose is to imagine that you are the only thing that is existing, that there are no dimensions of space outside of yourself, then once you take yourself away from the picture and view it from the outside looking in you can see nothing existing any more.
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Fiverings
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Re: Free will « Reply #644 on: March 12, 2013, 06:59 PM »
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The color or senses don't matter. The purpose is to imagine that you are the only thing that is existing, that there are no dimensions of space outside of yourself, then once you take yourself away from the picture and view it from the outside looking in you can see nothing existing any more.
[/quote  To take yourself out of a totality in which you are immersed. Can't be done, unless you cross that boundary no-one ever yet came back from.  We can agree on that, I guess.
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