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Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

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Scottish politics

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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3825 on: November 25, 2014, 03:33 PM »
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I was thinking of  Nicola Sturgeon as a PM of Great Britain  not just Scotland   Unification not division is the safest and most sensible way forward
I believe Scotland would always be willing to stand side by side with the rest of the UK in the face of any threat Bennie.....but as 'equal partners' and 'not' because they've been ordered by Westminster to do so! Scotland is 'British' after all and nothing can change that....even independence.
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3826 on: November 25, 2014, 04:31 PM »
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I was thinking of  Nicola Sturgeon as a PM of Great Britain  not just Scotland   Unification not division is the safest and most sensible way forward
   Unification? I get on well with my neighbours but I wouldn't want them to dictate how I spend my money, would you?  We'd certainly fall out then.
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3827 on: November 25, 2014, 06:09 PM »
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She will be a great First Minister and will lead Scotland to Independence. Unlike Thatcher who is still reviled in Scotland she will do the best for her country and not leave people hungry and without housing. She has a good team around her and she will put Scotland,s needs to the forefront I think she will do Scotland proud.
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asimov
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3828 on: November 25, 2014, 10:33 PM »
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Mrs Thatcher was not universally popular, in fact she actually said of the first past the post system, ' if you can keep 40% of the population happy, the other 60% can go to hell' and that is what she did, she kept the South of England and part of London happy and the rest of the country was largely stripped of manufacturing industry and financial institutions. The Labour party and the liberals split the other 60% and stayed in opposition until Blair decided the only way to beat the Tories was to join them and new Labour was born.
The idea that Scotland and England stand as equal partners is ridiculous. It may be that in 1707 this was the notion but it has never been the case. When a much larger Nation is joined to a much smaller one, they are never equal. In the UK; money, jobs, industry and power have been increasingly concentrated in the South East for many years, only now are we hearing discussion of allowing some of these powers to be spread across the regions of England. As an example, in London they are presently building a cross London rail system at a cost of 15 billion pounds, in Scotland we can't even get a Glasgow airport link at 200 million pounds. Capital spending is not part of the money given to the Scottish Government, we get what Westminster decides to give us which is next to nothing.
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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3829 on: November 26, 2014, 06:51 AM »
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Mrs Thatcher was not universally popular, in fact she actually said of the first past the post system, ' if you can keep 40% of the population happy, the other 60% can go to hell' and that is what she did, she kept the South of England and part of London happy and the rest of the country was largely stripped of manufacturing industry and financial institutions. The Labour party and the liberals split the other 60% and stayed in opposition until Blair decided the only way to beat the Tories was to join them and new Labour was born.
The idea that Scotland and England stand as equal partners is ridiculous. It may be that in 1707 this was the notion but it has never been the case. When a much larger Nation is joined to a much smaller one, they are never equal. In the UK; money, jobs, industry and power have been increasingly concentrated in the South East for many years, only now are we hearing discussion of allowing some of these powers to be spread across the regions of England. As an example, in London they are presently building a cross London rail system at a cost of 15 billion pounds, in Scotland we can't even get a Glasgow airport link at 200 million pounds. Capital spending is not part of the money given to the Scottish Government, we get what Westminster decides to give us which is next to nothing.
Asimov, 'the 'equal partner' part of my comment was referring to an 'independent' Scotland!
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3830 on: November 26, 2014, 11:02 AM »
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Asimov, 'the 'equal partner' part of my comment was referring to an 'independent' Scotland!

My apologies Caz.  I did not read your post properly and mistook you for a No voter and I understand that that is very uncomplimentary. 
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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3831 on: November 26, 2014, 01:32 PM »
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My apologies Caz.  I did not read your post properly and mistook you for a No voter and I understand that that is very uncomplimentary. 
Aye it is....  :p but that's ok! I've done that a time or two myself!
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dave_ladder
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3832 on: November 27, 2014, 12:42 PM »
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The idea that Scotland and England stand as equal partners is ridiculous. It may be that in 1707 this was the notion but it has never been the case. When a much larger Nation is joined to a much smaller one, they are never equal. In the UK; money, jobs, industry and power have been increasingly concentrated in the South East for many years, only now are we hearing discussion of allowing some of these powers to be spread across the regions of England. As an example, in London they are presently building a cross London rail system at a cost of 15 billion pounds, in Scotland we can't even get a Glasgow airport link at 200 million pounds. Capital spending is not part of the money given to the Scottish Government, we get what Westminster decides to give us which is next to nothing.

I try not to argue about this subject too much on here, but I'll admit I get a little angry reading things like this. You've said that jobs are increasingly concentrated in the South-East, for instance, but Scotland has a lower unemployment rate than the rest of the UK. In fact, Scotland has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe.

That's the problem I have with these arguments - it's the politics of grievance and the facts of the matter seem to get overlooked in favour of emotional appeals about London stealing all our resources and whatever else. We regularly hear about us generating more tax revenue than we receive in spending (complete with emotive examples such as Crossrail), but the Scottish Government's own figures had us generating 9.1% of UK taxation revenue last year and receiving 9.3% of UK spending. Of course that varies year on year, but it's pretty difficult to take that argument seriously going forward when the very last year had us in a surplus (and oil revenues are on a downward trend by anyone's estimate so that's hardly going to move in the opposite direction long-term).

I voted No, but I don't have anything against practical arguments for independence. It's an open debate - some people think we should go our own way, some people think we're better off in the UK. That's completely fine as a practical argument, but I have a real problem with the kind of divisive blame politics that we keep hearing about - arguments where we pretend we're some downtrodden minority being exploited by our bigger neighbour, our resources are being siphoned off, and Westminster/London are essentially the root cause of every ill in society.

That's not a practical argument, it's just nationalist scapegoating and I think we'd all benefit (independent or not) from putting that kind of populism to one side and just judging things on a level headed, rational basis. You'll find people in Scotland agree on a lot more than they disagree on if we just get round a table and start talking about the details of devolution.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3833 on: November 27, 2014, 01:25 PM »
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I try not to argue about this subject too much on here, but I'll admit I get a little angry reading things like this. You've said that jobs are increasingly concentrated in the South-East, for instance, but Scotland has a lower unemployment rate than the rest of the UK. In fact, Scotland has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe.

That's the problem I have with these arguments - it's the politics of grievance and the facts of the matter seem to get overlooked in favour of emotional appeals about London stealing all our resources and whatever else. We regularly hear about us generating more tax revenue than we receive in spending (complete with emotive examples such as Crossrail), but the Scottish Government's own figures had us generating 9.1% of UK taxation revenue last year and receiving 9.3% of UK spending. Of course that varies year on year, but it's pretty difficult to take that argument seriously going forward when the very last year had us in a surplus (and oil revenues are on a downward trend by anyone's estimate so that's hardly going to move in the opposite direction long-term).

I voted No, but I don't have anything against practical arguments for independence. It's an open debate - some people think we should go our own way, some people think we're better off in the UK. That's completely fine as a practical argument, but I have a real problem with the kind of divisive blame politics that we keep hearing about - arguments where we pretend we're some downtrodden minority being exploited by our bigger neighbour, our resources are being siphoned off, and Westminster/London are essentially the root cause of every ill in society.

That's not a practical argument, it's just nationalist scapegoating and I think we'd all benefit (independent or not) from putting that kind of populism to one side and just judging things on a level headed, rational basis. You'll find people in Scotland agree on a lot more than they disagree on if we just get round a table and start talking about the details of devolution.
   Of course its politics of grievance - all politics is driven by grievance, you make it sound like its some kind of petulant whinging. There is overwhelming evidence that Britain is one of the most centralised economies in the developed world, with London and the SE hugely out of kilter with the rest of the UK. Partly this is historical and geographical with London the natural conduit between Europe and America, but it has not been helped by the political classes, particularly with the decline of traditional industries. I have always been an SNP sympathiser, and long believed that Scotland's role as an independent European nation could only be beneficial for all parts of the UK. The rise of UKIP makes me even more convinced of this.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3834 on: November 28, 2014, 09:02 PM »
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Scotland's role as an independent European nation could only be beneficial for all parts of the UK

Well, it really wouldn't be beneficial for Scotland, would it? I know I bang on about oil, but revenues were quite an important (~20%) component of the SNP's fiscal policy post independence. It'd have been both hilarious and terrifying to see how they'd cope with this:

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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3835 on: November 30, 2014, 03:10 AM »
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Happy St Andrews Day to all Scots at home, in the rUK, and all over the world!  yay  cheers  Bagpipes






Apart from the fact that Creepy Cameron intends to fly the Saltire outside No.10, I've noticed much more media coverage than usual this year, with even Google getting in on the act - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/saint-andrews-day-2014-google-celebrates-scotlands-official-national-day-with-flying-scotsman-doodle-9893297.html   I wonder why? Whistle
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3836 on: November 30, 2014, 03:46 PM »
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Getting ready for Nicola's State Visit when she comes next week to meet the Queen!
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3837 on: November 30, 2014, 04:32 PM »
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Most certainly! lol
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dave_ladder
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #3838 on: December 05, 2014, 06:44 PM »
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   Of course its politics of grievance - all politics is driven by grievance, you make it sound like its some kind of petulant whinging. There is overwhelming evidence that Britain is one of the most centralised economies in the developed world, with London and the SE hugely out of kilter with the rest of the UK. Partly this is historical and geographical with London the natural conduit between Europe and America, but it has not been helped by the political classes, particularly with the decline of traditional industries. I have always been an SNP sympathiser, and long believed that Scotland's role as an independent European nation could only be beneficial for all parts of the UK. The rise of UKIP makes me even more convinced of this.

A lot (certainly not all) of politics is driven by mobilising people around grievances (and some of the worst decisions in the history of human society have stemmed from that process) but that doesn't make it any more rationale when we do it in Scotland. The point is that we're only going to solve society's existing problems if we start dealing with them as they are - that means taking on board evidence, outlining practical solutions and agreeing on reasoned policies rather than having odd sideshows about whether London, Brussels, immigrants, benefit cheats, bankers or whoever else should be made a scapegoat.

As I clearly said, I have nothing whatsoever against people making a purely practical case for independence. That's a completely different thing - independence is a complex subject where two completely reasonable and informed people can weigh up the arguments and come to different conclusions. I happen to believe we're vastly better off inside of the UK and I think the evidence backs me up on that, but I'm not going to deny someone a right to an opinion on it if they disagree. Nor is there any problem with people wanting to rebalance the UK economy away from London - perfectly fine as a principle and I agree with it entirely.

What I have a problem with are those who seem to revel in spinning folktales about the people down the M1 stealing all of our resources simply because it suits their agenda. Pinning every ill in society on to the influence of a bunch of people who don't belong to "our" group is one of the oldest and most damaging instincts in politics. That kind of argument has essentially nothing to do with the practical case for independence, yet the two are consistently conflated.
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