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Question: What do you think of Margaret Thatcher as a person?
Good. - 16 (41%)
Bad. - 23 (59%)
Total Voters: 38

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Margaret Thatcher - good or bad?

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Aileen
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #600 on: April 19, 2013, 05:57 PM »
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Labour oppose independence don't they?  Could they overturn any decision made on the independence vote or have the SNP put something in place that you can't do that.  And I guess I should ask this question on the other thread.
Westminster have pledged to honour the result of the referendum, whatever it is.
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Bevc
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #601 on: April 19, 2013, 10:09 PM »
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I wonder how much we are all responsible for the decline in British Industry?

Where was that item of clothing you're wearing made? That piece of furniture? The piece of food? Doncaster was famous its trains - Flying Scotsman and Mallard being built there, but wasn't a recent order handed to Germany.  Why? Cheaper? Better quality?

And if it was made in Britain, is it British owned? Asda sold out to Walmart when I worked there many years ago. Didn't Kraft recently buy Cadburys? Jeez, they built a whole village when they started. When does that happen now? Oh that's when there were fewer people and needed workers. Same for the cotton mills in Lancashire and mines of Yorkshire and elsewhere.

There are lots of factors to take into account with the demise of industry.

There was a major campaign here recently in NZ. It was encouraging you to buy NZ made. Also a lot of shops will display signs that say Kiwi owned and operated. There are a lot of franchises here and in Australia.
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Aileen
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #602 on: April 20, 2013, 01:05 AM »
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^ Personally I'm very fed up with seeing "Made in China" on just about everything I buy.  And to add insult to injury it appears on much of the 'Scottish' stuff sold in the tourist shops.  There are a handful of upmarket shops which do sell genuine home-made Scottish goods, but that's about it, the bottom line being that goods made in China are cheap and so there will be no problem about selling them to tourists.  Oh - and to really rub salt in the wound, just about every cheapo tourist shop is run and staffed mainly by Asians.  The fact that they're second or third generation immigrants who have Scots accents cuts no ice with me either.

A very good example of industrial decline in Scotland was when a long-establkished meat factory in a small town near Edinburgh closed in February with the loss of 1,700 jobs.  Why?  Because it was Dutch owned and the owners felt the factory was no longer viable because they could make bigger profits elsewhere in Europe, a fact which Alex Salmond has chosen to ignore in his referendum campaign, largely because so far only 50 former employees have found work elsewhere.  (So much for the 'there will be jobs for everyone' in an independent Scotland promise!)

Mercifully Harris Tweed is still traditionally made in the island of Harris and Scotch whisky has to be made in Scotland to enable it to be legally called that, thereby distinguishing it from whiskies made in other countries, most notably Japan, Canada and the US, and which are made from different recipes anyway.
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Iris
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #603 on: April 20, 2013, 01:16 AM »
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Free Tibet stickers are also made in China Rolling Eyes
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #604 on: April 20, 2013, 11:49 AM »
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The solution of this problem is simple. If foreign companies set up in Scotland they are usually given a grant to help build new factories. For example Hyundi were going to come to Dunfermline and a brand new factory was built for them by the Scottish government they changed their minds and the place is still empty. They should have to pay for the construction of the building and also be fined for not moving in. A contract should have been made with rules that are strictly adhered to,if they break it the full force of the law should be enforced. To many foreign companies are getting away with murder and there should be stronger rules made so that they cant come and take off when they want to.I agree with Aileen about cheap good coming from Asia also Banks having call cenetres in  India. There are plenty of people in Scotland who could do this work many people who are well educated in this country and have no job. I'm afraid I believe that charity begins at home.


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FCR
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #605 on: April 20, 2013, 12:10 PM »
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The solution of this problem is simple. If foreign companies set up in Scotland they are usually given a grant to help build new factories. For example Hyundi were going to come to Dunfermline and a brand new factory was built for them by the Scottish government they changed their minds and the place is still empty. They should have to pay for the construction of the building and also be fined for not moving in. A contract should have been made with rules that are strictly adhered to,if they break it the full force of the law should be enforced. To many foreign companies are getting away with murder and there should be stronger rules made so that they cant come and take off when they want to.I agree with Aileen about cheap good coming from Asia also Banks having call cenetres in  India. There are plenty of people in Scotland who could do this work many people who are well educated in this country and have no job. I'm afraid I believe that charity begins at home.



By and large in the UK we don't tolerate sweat shops, young children working and for peanuts.  However, this does goes on abroad and they produce cheap goods for us here to buy - thus getting more for our pennies.  If we make a determined effort to buy British (and can afford to do so), then maybe we can get Britain back on its feet.   I'm fortunate to live close to a prison farm shop, where the quality of the meat, poultry and eggs is amazing - £1.20 for 6 eggs too big to close the lid, covered in poo and straw - perfect.   100% Beef Burglars and Governor's Special Bangers. Their in season veg is great too and their annual plants and hanging baskets are splendid.  So many people in my area have no idea that this shop exists because they can't advertise in competition with local suppliers.
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DaveH
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #606 on: April 20, 2013, 04:35 PM »
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Thatcher was good for less people than voted for her, for sure. The CP would never get in if significant numbers of people didn't vote against their own interests.

Thatcher's legacy is inequality. An income inequality that is rising faster than in any other rich nation since the 1970s, and inequality that is largely geographical. Inequality is devastating socially and psychologically. Crime and status anxiety also affect the rich. Thatcher said that the left-wing would rather the poor were poorer than than the rich getting richer. Firstly, numerous studies have shown it is actually inequality that makes people unhappy, rather than absolutely having less, or indeed absolutely having more. Making that a moot point however is the fact that her implication that income will decrease for the poor under left-wing governments is untrue.

Thatcher's faith in the free market was essentially religious. Unfortunately, hand-in-hand with Reagan, her neoliberal influence was global. So here we are in a world where industry has fought against the science of climate change for so long that it is too late to stop major detrimental changes; a world that has been dragged to its knees by greedy souls in the under-regulated financial sector; overarchingly, a world where the interests of the multinational are given priority over the interests of locals.

Her assessment of the miners as Communists, "the enemy within" who were more dangerous than the Argentine dictator Galtieri, was a wonderful way to villainize the working class, and an unforgivably divisive stance for the leader of the country to take. I suppose you could say that she was a true capitalist, but there is no merit in  ideology that refuses to adapt to the messiness of the real world.

Thatcher promised to reduce the dependence on the welfare state, but by casually ripping up communities reliant on heavy industry she left Britain more dependent on welfare than when she came to power.

As for privatization of failing state industries, I see no reason to thank her for the clumsy solution of simply creating effective monopolies.
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Bevc
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #607 on: April 22, 2013, 09:44 PM »
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Dave, how old were you again when there was the miners strike of 1972/1974, when the miners held the country to ransom to get what they wanted?  I believe the first payrise was 21% and the 2nd 35%.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #608 on: April 22, 2013, 10:11 PM »
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Dave, how old were you again when there was the miners strike of 1972/1974, when the miners held the country to ransom to get what they wanted?  I believe the first payrise was 21% and the 2nd 35%.



Bev "this how old were you" thing is futile. You don't need to have lived through the holocaust to form an opinion on it.

 
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Bevc
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #609 on: April 22, 2013, 10:23 PM »
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Eyebrow raise.  Holocaust and miners strike naughty

I'm sorry but the miners held the country to ransom to get what they wanted.  They didn't care about the millions it affected, so long as they were ok.  Sorry, I generalise too much, not all the miners wanted to strike, and they lost their jobs as a result.  Andy they weren't the only ones to do it.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #610 on: April 22, 2013, 10:32 PM »
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Did you think i was comparing them?
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Bevc
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #611 on: April 22, 2013, 10:37 PM »
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I honestly don't know what you were doing.  I can't even begin to imagine what it (Holocaust) would have been like.  I hope that I never find out.

Yes, I was only young myself during the 70's but could see my family struggle with the short working week.  I remember us changing from coal fires to gas.

The mining industry had been on the decline for decades and it would seem that many couldn't accept that and it all came to a head in the 80's.

Arthur Scargill's premise was to continue to throw good money at bad, no matter the cost.
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Aileen
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #612 on: April 23, 2013, 02:23 AM »
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Eyebrow raise.  Holocaust and miners strike naughty

I'm sorry but the miners held the country to ransom to get what they wanted.  They didn't care about the millions it affected, so long as they were ok.  Sorry, I generalise too much, not all the miners wanted to strike, and they lost their jobs as a result.  Andy they weren't the only ones to do it.
Strikes are usually futile anyway since the ones who really lose out are the strikers themselves because they lose pay through not working - all for the sake of a measly pay rise, although the miners did get considerably more than that.

I do remember the 1972 strike in particular because the country more or less ground to a halt for two months.  And they deliberately started early in January in order to cover a time when electricity consumption is at its peak.  I certainly don't recall many people having any sympathy for them.

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Bevc
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #613 on: April 23, 2013, 03:56 AM »
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That's why the strike int he 80's didn't work.  They started when the weather was getting warmer and the demand was lower.  Coal had also been stock-piled, just in case this kind of thing happened.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that importing coal for £32 per tonne as against the average of £44 per tonne was more economical.  Some coal mines it was £100 and others, like some mines in Wales and Nottinghamshire, it was less, as they were cost effective.

I have read that some Welsh miners did put their money where their mouth was and bought out their mine.  This only recently closed.
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Margaret Thatcher - good or bad? « Reply #614 on: April 23, 2013, 11:44 AM »
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They would have lost their jobs anyway. Thatcher was determined to close what she termed uneconomic mines. She made no attempt to replace those lost jobs at all. Maybe when this country grinds to a halt because we do not have enough power stations because this government terms them too expensive. Because they are reluctant to use Nuclear power coal will come back into fashion. Perhaps then they will reopen the mines.
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