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Poll
Question: Do you believe in God?
Yes, there is a God - 35 (47.3%)
No (atheist) - 30 (40.5%)
Unsure (agnostic) - 9 (12.2%)
Total Voters: 73

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Author Topic: Religious Discussions  (Read 71021 times)
Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4050 on: July 23, 2012, 05:25 PM »
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Thanks for sharing that, TJ.  Can I ask how you visualise God?  An omniscient and all-powerful creator interested in your personal well-being, or  an intermediary in some vast cosmic enterprise bigger than any individual part of it, or something else entirely? I personally feel that there is a vast plan to the Universe that we are only beginning to presume to  understand, but i have never been comfortable with a personal God. Even the word tolerance in religious and other contexts makes me uncomfortable as it implies that those who are tolerated are misguided rather than equal.

I agree with you there.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4051 on: July 23, 2012, 05:26 PM »
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Hi Mark and all,

With respect I think you're wrong.

I became a Christian at 18. In the years imediately before that a dear friend died suddenly, we had some family troubles, and then, the year or so before I became a Christian I went through an awful break up with the person who is now my ex-boyfriend.

My response to all of that at first was basically to shut down. No one would have realised, I got on and did things, but I was on auto-pilot. Life wasn't fun and I hated it, and hated everyone as well. Eventually I ran out of people to hate, or rather, to be angry with, so I started on God. I eventually decided that he didn't exist, and that was it. It was, in retrospect, me saying that he wasn't playing by my rules, so I wasn't playing anymore. And there's me thinking Roger Federer is arrogant! At that point he would have had nothing on yours truly.

That was fine, I got on with my 'life', such as it was at that point, and I suppose God did his thing as well. However, I suddenly found myself getting really angry with anything to do with religion or religious people. They were all nutters, sheep, with no will whatsoever of their own.

One night I was invited out to dinner with some people I knew. Quite by chance at one point the conversation turned to religion. I was asked by a friend if I believed. My response was pretty adamant. No, it was all daft, religious people were sheep, blah, blah, blah. My friend, to his credit, didn't even flinch. Instead of belittling me, or making me feel bad, he sat there and calmly told me why he believes. The most amazing thing was that it wasn't like listening to someone talk about God. It was as if he was telling me about his mate in the pub. I'd never heard anything like it.

I can't say that moment changed me there and then, but it did make me think. Was I missing out on something? Do we have a real relationship with God through Jesus? What did it all mean for me? I responded in the only way I knew. I began to read. I read all sorts, not just the Bible, which in fact was the last place I went to. The one thing that struck me straight away was that everything I read said the same thing, i.e. that the crucifixion is the best recorded fact in ancient history, and not all of those who recorded it were Christians, so they had no axe to grind in Jesus's favour. Indeed, in some cases the exact reverse is true.

That thought, that Jesus is a historical fact, gave me something to think about. From there I felt able to speak to some people,to find out what difference it all made to them. I was quite shocked by what I found. Christians come in all different types. Yes, there are sheep out there, people who take every word the Bible says as literal truth, people who neither think or question. That wasn't for me. Fortunately I spoke to others who did question, who did think, and who wouldn't be sheep for anyone, yet underneath all that there was faith, an admission that whilst questioning is right, and even getting angry with God is all right, we are mere humans after all, it is also right to know that we can't know everything. That made me realise where I was going wrong. I thought it was my place, my right, to know everything, to know how life works, to be in total control, and that letting go of some of that control was a failure, which led to anger for failing, which led to guilt for the anger. It took me speaking to some good friends to find out that yes, I was right to ask the questions, but that didn't mean I had a right to the answers, and certainly not always the answers I wanted, which is where faith comes in. It was then that all the anger towards religious people, or certain types of them, went away, along with the idea that God can't handle us being angry with Him.

The more time I spent thinking and talking to people who'd gone through their own experiences, the more I realised that these people were happy. They still had troubles, they still went through everything in life we all deal with, but they all felt complete. It made me realise that I wanted that, so I asked Jesus in to my life. I had to ask, He doesn't go where He isn't invited. That took me ages to realise, it caused no end of frustration on my part, but I got there. I invited Him in and He showed up for me. There was no gun to my head, no pushing, it was my decision and mine alone. It wouldn't have worked for me if it had been any other way.

Since then life hasn't been easy. My beloved father died in 2002. My mother developed a form of dementia in the late 90s. My mother died in 2004, two and a half years after my father, and in the years since his death I'd been Mum's main carer.. It made me realise that sure, life is not fair, some go through life and nothing ever touches them, whilst others are constantly picking themselves up from the latest disaster. Of course it made me question. I did a lot of praying that basically took the form of ranting at God. And then it hit me. At least if I was ranting at God I was not going through the bad stuff on my own. The bad stuff was still bad, some of it was a nightmare, but it was a heck of a lot easier to deal with it all with Him than on my own. Emotional prop, I hear you say. Well yes, probably, in many ways, but I would argue as well that my faith has been tested and stood up to the test. To my mind that has to mean something.



I'm not angry with god. I just don't believe one exists, and I'd say the evidence is firmly on my side.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4052 on: July 23, 2012, 05:26 PM »
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That is so simplistic and such a stupid way looking at things that are still mostly unknown.

Looks pretty accurate to me.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4053 on: July 23, 2012, 05:44 PM »
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Looks pretty accurate to me.

A matter bound by time and space cannot always exist. All matters have a start and expiry date. For that reason, the Universe as we know it cannot always exist. The only other theory you will be left with if it came from absolutely nothing and that's impossible. Unless of course you understand that every physical realm has a nonphysical realm attached to it.
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4054 on: July 23, 2012, 05:47 PM »
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That is so simplistic and such a stupid way looking at things that are still mostly unknown.
It's based purely on the Bible, something Christians consider the truth. So no, it's not based on the unknown and therefore stupid.

It reflects exactly what I have felt for a long time as an ex-Christian. If Jesus turned out to actually be the son of God, that statement in the image would still hold true to me.
[ Last edit by Mark July 23, 2012, 05:51 PM ] IP Logged
Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4055 on: July 23, 2012, 06:12 PM »
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A matter bound by time and space cannot always exist. All matters have a start and expiry date. For that reason, the Universe as we know it cannot always exist. The only other theory you will be left with if it came from absolutely nothing and that's impossible. Unless of course you understand that every physical realm has a nonphysical realm attached to it.

Utterly irrelevant to what I said, yet also completely incorrect.

All matter has an expiry date? Where did you get that rubbish from?
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scotnadian
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4056 on: July 23, 2012, 06:41 PM »
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This matter has no expriy date. wink
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4057 on: July 23, 2012, 06:51 PM »
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A matter bound by time and space cannot always exist. All matters have a start and expiry date. For that reason, the Universe as we know it cannot always exist. The only other theory you will be left with if it came from absolutely nothing and that's impossible. Unless of course you understand that every physical realm has a nonphysical realm attached to it.
  This gets to the nub of the metaphysics. Some early Christians, deriving their philosophy from who knows which previous traditions believed that man was a fusion of spirit ( energy?) and matter.  Living creatures were spirits enmeshed in matter, which was the domain of the Devil, and were seeking to return to their spiritual home. It is another symbol of the duality me/not me that while it enables us to stand apart from and be aware of the universe, also has split us from the unity of existence.  And that, I believe, is at the root of  the human condition.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4058 on: July 23, 2012, 08:25 PM »
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This gets to the nub of the metaphysics. Some early Christians, deriving their philosophy from who knows which previous traditions believed that man was a fusion of spirit ( energy?) and matter.  Living creatures were spirits enmeshed in matter, which was the domain of the Devil, and were seeking to return to their spiritual home. It is another symbol of the duality me/not me that while it enables us to stand apart from and be aware of the universe, also has split us from the unity of existence.  And that, I believe, is at the root of  the human condition.

Agreed. Listen to this beautiful Einstein quote:

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4059 on: July 23, 2012, 08:41 PM »
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Agreed. Listen to this beautiful Einstein quote that in a roundabout way coincides with yours:

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
  Thanks - i wasn't aware of that quote, but it certainly chimes with that early Christian philosophy that I mentioned. I must go and research it further, but I believe that it became diluted because later Christians did not want to cede the whole material world to the Devil.
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4060 on: July 31, 2012, 10:32 AM »
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Hazybear
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4061 on: July 31, 2012, 12:22 PM »
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Mark I love you but my reaction to that post - F*** off Smile
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4062 on: August 02, 2012, 12:44 AM »
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Yes, **** off Mark. Smile
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4063 on: August 02, 2012, 01:07 AM »
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Glad he is being elected for another term Smile

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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4064 on: August 02, 2012, 01:24 AM »
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Glad he is being elected for another term Smile

The polling is showing the race to be way too close for my liking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150743/obama-romney.aspx

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