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Poll
Question: Do you believe in God?
Yes, there is a God - 35 (46.7%)
No (atheist) - 30 (40%)
Unsure (agnostic) - 10 (13.3%)
Total Voters: 74

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Religious Discussions

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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4215 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26 PM »
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If it had clearly revealed such a thing, he would be the most famous person on Earth by now.

Sorry but the world we live in doesn't work that way. It will take time and perhaps a few centuries to understand all this. He and a few others are just way ahead of their time, but that doesn't mean they can't put out the message out there. It's not the whole of world that make the big change but a few minds but still any new change take a lot of time. If you are lucky, you will see some of it happening. I doubt it though. You are only physically open to possibilities.

This is the reason why I quote this Einstein quote time and again because it's so worth it and perhaps one of these days they will get it too.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4216 on: November 17, 2012, 08:27 PM »
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  Thats not an argument for determinism - its an argument for random outcomes

No, that's determinism. Read up on the concept.

Everything you do is a product of genes and environment. Which of those do/did you have control over?
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4217 on: November 17, 2012, 08:28 PM »
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Because... because... QUANTUM THEORY!

I am defeat. I go now.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4218 on: November 17, 2012, 08:30 PM »
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Sorry but the world we live in doesn't work that way. It will take time and perhaps a few centuries to understand all this. He and a few others are just way ahead of their time, but that doesn't mean they can't put out the message out there. It's not the whole of world that make the big change but a few minds but still any new change take a lot of time. If you are lucky, you will see some of it happening. I doubt it though. You are only physically open to possibilities.

This is the reason why I quote this Einstein quote time and again because it's so worth it and perhaps one of these days they will get it too.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."

I really wish you would stop quoting Einstein. You often quote him completely out of context.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4219 on: November 17, 2012, 08:33 PM »
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What we have here is a combination of an ad hominem attack and an argument from incredulity.

Do you actually have any response to Sam's points? First of all, 2% means that a small number recover. I'm not sure what that has to do with his NDE, though.

Secondly, if his brain was dead, how did he remember the experience? We know that memory is tied to the brain.

Because conscious is non local or in other word, doesn't need signals to communicate. An experience will remain and will continue to exist even after the physical death because that's what conscious is. So if he were to die he would have still existed and remembered it just like he's doing so right now; the only difference is, you and I wouldn't know about it because we are not on the other side of that realm. So whether he's dead or not is irrelevant. Brain is only a tool - a human processor if you will. I am really not expecting you to understand consciousness, really. lol
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4220 on: November 17, 2012, 08:34 PM »
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I really wish you would stop quoting Einstein. You often quote him completely out of context.

That's because you don't get it and again, I don't expect that you would.
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4221 on: November 17, 2012, 08:39 PM »
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No, that's determinism. Read up on the concept.

Everything you do is a product of genes and environment. Which of those do/did you have control over?
  I don't accept that at all. Chance is a very important element in individual   destiny. If I were such a simple entity as an atom of uranium you wouldn't be able to predict if I would disintegrate in ten seconds or  10000 years.
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4222 on: November 17, 2012, 08:40 PM »
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That's because you don't get it and again, I don't expect that you would.
Are you sure it's not the other way around? It was only a couple of weeks ago that I had to inform you that Einstein was an atheist.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4223 on: November 17, 2012, 08:42 PM »
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Because conscious is non local or in other word, doesn't need signals to communicate. An experience will remain and will continue to exist even after the physical death because that's what conscious is. So if he were to die he would have still existed and remembered it just like he's doing so right now; the only difference is, you and I wouldn't know about it because we are not on the other side of that realm. So whether hes' dead or not doesn't really matter. Brain is only a tool - a human processor if you will. I am really not expecting you to understand consciousness, really. lol

First of all, you have absolutely no proof that consciousness is non-local. You simply asserted it.

Secondly, we're talking about memory. If you damage certain parts of the brain, you are no longer able to form memories. Memory is, without question, a product of the brain.

Therefore, if his brain was dead he could not have remembered the experience. It is that simple. To suggest that a dead brain can form memories is simply nonsense.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4224 on: November 17, 2012, 08:44 PM »
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  I don't accept that at all. Chance is a very important element in individual   destiny. If I were such a simple entity as an atom of uranium you wouldn't be able to predict if I would disintegrate in ten seconds or  10000 years.

You clearly don't get it.

Even if chance was part of the process, what control do you have over chance? You are not in control of randomness. Therefore, you still don't have free will.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4225 on: November 17, 2012, 08:45 PM »
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What we have here is a combination of an ad hominem attack and an argument from incredulity.

Do you actually have any response to Sam's points? First of all, 2% means that a small number recover. I'm not sure what that has to do with his NDE, though.

Secondly, if his brain was dead, how did he remember the experience? We know that memory is tied to the brain.

No. If you had known his story completely, you'd have known that by 2% it meant that, that his survival chance only. Granted, that's something and a chance for him to come back, but for him to be in same mental state as before was negative. He was supposed to be in vegetative state after the recovery because the disease had wiped out all his memory (that's what this disease does) and he was brain dead for 7 days as no activities in the brain. But he beat all odds and made full recovery and now he's working as a Neurosurgeon again. Medical science has no answer to his recovery.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4226 on: November 17, 2012, 08:47 PM »
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That's because you don't get it and again, I don't expect that you would.

As Mark pointed out, we have both witnessed you quoting Einstein out of context. You tried to use one of his quotes to show that he was a theist.

You don't actually read people's work. You look for quotes instead because you have no attention span.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4227 on: November 17, 2012, 08:50 PM »
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First of all, you have absolutely no proof that consciousness is non-local. You simply asserted it.

Secondly, we're talking about memory. If you damage certain parts of the brain, you are no longer able to form memories. Memory is, without question, a product of the brain.

Therefore, if his brain was dead he could not have remembered the experience. It is that simple. To suggest that a dead brain can form memories is simply nonsense.

And you clearly didn't 't bother to see Dr. Amit Gowsami's clip that I'd posted earlier on. If you say you know more than a physicist who spent his whole life researching this field and his text books are followed in Universities, then I rest my case right here.

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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4228 on: November 17, 2012, 08:54 PM »
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No. If you had known his story completely, you'd have known that by 2% it meant that, that his survival chance only. Granted, that's something and a chance for him to come back, but for him to be in same mental state as before was negative. He was supposed to be in vegetative state after the recovery because the disease had wiped out all his memory (that's what this disease does) and he was brain dead for 7 days as no activities in the brain. But he beat all odds and made full recovery and now he's working as a Neurosurgeon again. Medical science has no answer to his recovery.

No, he wasn't brain dead for seven days. What utter ********. It isn't possible to be brain dead and come back to life, let alone after a week.

Could you quote where he says that he was brain dead? He was in a coma, but his brain was not dead.

And again, who cares about his chances of survival? That has no relevance to the NDE.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4229 on: November 17, 2012, 08:57 PM »
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Are you sure it's not the other way around? It was only a couple of weeks ago that I had to inform you that Einstein was an atheist.

He was never an atheist. He started out as an skeptic (a much preferred word) but as he grew older his mind continued to change. Perhaps you should read or see his biography and find out how he was or how he saw the world, when he was far more mature. But it's also true that Einstein was not always right. For example, he never agreed to entanglement theory (he called it a spooky action) until Heisenberg came along and proved Einstein wrong.
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