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Poll
Question: Do you believe in God?
Yes, there is a God - 35 (46.7%)
No (atheist) - 30 (40%)
Unsure (agnostic) - 10 (13.3%)
Total Voters: 74

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Religious Discussions

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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4290 on: November 18, 2012, 06:27 PM »
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Oh, we have changed our tune now then since I pointed out that the information didn't come from Deepak Chopra but renown physicists like Dr. Gowsami and Dr. Wolf. Very nice.

Changed my tune? No idea how you got that from my response.
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DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4291 on: November 18, 2012, 06:33 PM »
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Consciousness is a non local entity outside time and space

Please explain how an untested interpretation of QM gives you the right to assert the above as true.


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yet [consciousness] is everything there is

Please explain how you arrive at this conclusion.


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ice has consciousness and can make choices as the ice is not its true self but only a manifestation of the consciousness' self.


Why do you assume that consciousness automatically enables the ability to make choices?

Can you usefully include "the ability to make choices" in a description of ice?
 

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DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4292 on: November 18, 2012, 06:50 PM »
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Because once he woke up, that's was the only thing he remembered. He couldn't recognize anyone (his family or relatives) for a few hours/days etc. He also couldn't remember anything from his life before the coma. It's so clear to me that you didn't even bother to listen to what he had to say about his own experience. lol

So he remembered only his experiences. And? What about him remembering his experiences guarantees that he had those experiences while he was brain dead? Do you maintain he was brain dead when he remembered those experiences?
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Fiverings
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4293 on: November 18, 2012, 09:55 PM »
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Fiverings... are you going to answer my simple question?

What is the difference between your belief that ice is conscious and the belief that ice can make choices? You seem to think one is daft. How do you make the distinction?

  I've been busy. Conciousness does not imply the ability to make choices, even you might concede that.
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DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4294 on: November 18, 2012, 10:22 PM »
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Conciousness does not imply the ability to make choices, even you might concede that.

That bananas are yellow does not imply that they are square. Nonetheless, I can use the empirical evidence to distinguish between the two propositions. I have a way of telling that one is true and the other is daft.

What way do you have of distinguishing these two propositions?

1)Ice is conscious
2)Ice can make choices

You seem to think (2) is daft but (1) is true. How do you know the difference?
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Fiverings
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4295 on: November 18, 2012, 10:52 PM »
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That bananas are yellow does not imply that they are square. Nonetheless, I can use the empirical evidence to distinguish between the two propositions. I have a way of telling that one is true and the other is daft.


Sorry, I haven't a clue what you're on about
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DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4296 on: November 18, 2012, 11:24 PM »
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Sorry, I haven't a clue what you're on about

I am asking how you can tell that "ice makes choices"  is a daft statement.
I am asking how you can tell that "ice is conscious" is a true statement.

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scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4297 on: November 19, 2012, 03:20 AM »
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Almost all people believe that Muslim=Terrorist.
That is a really pathetic thought.
I don't believe that, Zarfeen. hug
I adore my two students (I call them "my boys") who are devout Muslims and came to our home straight from Jeddah to learn English and study Engineering. They are kind, pure, intelligent and humorous.
I must say though that it's certainly been an education for me to find out that their beliefs are set in stone with no room for empathy with others' beliefs.

It's like they've been living in a leaded box.
Their basic knowledge was astounding. Here is a small, random sample of stuff they had never heard of:

- Anything to do with space. (Space missions, the Space Station.)
- Had never written a paragraph in their lives. Only a basic sentence or two. (They tell me there are special schools in Jeddah for writing.)
- Germs and their influence.
- The Beatles, Lady Gaga, Madonna. (But they'd heard of Michael Jackson & Shakira.. other than that..)

Things I've learned:
- Google is censored in their country (they didn't know that until they used Google here in our country.)
- They believe in witchcraft and are frightened of it. And it is an offence punishable by death in their country.
- They love their King.
- They believe The Quoran is the absolute truth.
- They believe anything other than their religion is not the truth.

They are wonderful human beings who have lived in our home and have been part of our family for 2 years, but boy-o'-boy, have we learned from each other.
And continue to do so..
[ Last edit by scotnadian November 19, 2012, 03:36 AM ] IP Logged
scotnadian
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You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4298 on: November 19, 2012, 03:32 AM »
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I mean consequences for the mind. In other words, you are your brain. The body is basically a vehicle.
If the brain is a driver, does it have a destination?

Do you think we are progressing or regressing in our evolutionary process?
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4299 on: November 19, 2012, 12:46 PM »
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Do you think we are progressing or regressing in our evolutionary process?
I don't think an evolutionary process can regress. We evolve as much as we need to for our environment. There isn't a goal and therefore there is no aspect of progress.
[ Last edit by Mark November 19, 2012, 12:55 PM ] IP Logged
Fiverings
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4300 on: November 19, 2012, 12:58 PM »
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I am asking how you can tell that "ice makes choices"  is a daft statement.
I am asking how you can tell that "ice is conscious" is a true statement.


OK - here goes. Ice ( water, actually) is conscious because it responds in subtle ways to changes in its environment both on a molecular and massive level. Water does not make choices because the way it responds to its environment  appears to be entirely predictable in general terms. 
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Fiverings
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4301 on: November 19, 2012, 01:07 PM »
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I don't think an evolutionary process can regress. We evolve as much as we need to for our environment. There isn't a goal and therefore there is no aspect of progress.
   I agree entirely with this  - however, a corollary of the evolutionary process is that progress of sorts must inevitably occur as organisms develop in response to the increased complexity of the environment, a biological "arms race" as it were.  There is always a goal, but it keeps moving.
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4302 on: November 19, 2012, 01:28 PM »
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There is no goal. It just looks that way in hindsight.
[ Last edit by Mark November 19, 2012, 01:36 PM ] IP Logged
DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4303 on: November 19, 2012, 01:29 PM »
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OK - here goes. Ice ( water, actually) is conscious because it responds in subtle ways to changes in its environment both on a molecular and massive level. Water does not make choices because the way it responds to its environment  appears to be entirely predictable in general terms.  

How does it respond in subtle ways if its responses appear to be entirely predictable?

If the responses are entirely predictable why do you see this as a sign of consciousness?

If I put my hand on a hot stove and involuntarily withdraw it (which will happen with 100% predictability) is that a conscious decision?   It seems to be of a different character to a conscious decision to me. In fact, in a reflex reaction the Central Nervous System bypasses the brain except to send a pain signal.

[ Last edit by DaveH November 19, 2012, 01:44 PM ] IP Logged
DaveH
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4304 on: November 19, 2012, 01:31 PM »
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a corollary of the evolutionary process is that progress of sorts must inevitably occur as organisms develop in response to the increased complexity of the environment

Not true. For example, there are fishes who have evolved to live in dark caves who have lost the use of their eyes.

The environment does not necessarily get more complex.
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