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Poll
Question: Do you believe in God?
Yes, there is a God - 35 (46.7%)
No (atheist) - 30 (40%)
Unsure (agnostic) - 10 (13.3%)
Total Voters: 74

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Religious Discussions

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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4950 on: June 02, 2013, 12:16 AM »
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Did you read Free Will? It's a very short book.
Only the lecture you posted up a while back which was very good.
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Aileen
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4951 on: June 02, 2013, 12:16 AM »
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You give the book too much credit - one side of it is about brutal murder of unbelievers. We're just fortunate the majority ignore that.
Whilst a great deal of the Bible, the Old Testament that is, is about this terrible God who will punish people, often severely, who don't believe in Him.  So not necessarily by murdering them, but the parallel is still there, although fortunately these days people no longer go around torturing and sometimes killing those who either can't or won't conform to their concept of Christianity.

  
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4952 on: June 02, 2013, 12:17 AM »
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Any sort of morality makes no sense to me what so ever, one of the first arguments (if not the first argument) I go to against religion is that they introduce a concept of truthful morality.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4953 on: June 02, 2013, 12:19 AM »
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Any sort of morality makes no sense to me what so ever, one of the first arguments (if not the first argument) I go to against religion is that they introduce a concept of truthful morality.

Are you a moral nihilist like me, then?
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Iluvandy
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4954 on: June 02, 2013, 12:19 AM »
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The Milgram experiment was not about good and evil. It was about obedience to authority.

It shed some light on why people who otherwise had finely calibrated moral intuitions committed atrocities during WWII.

Blind obedience to authority brings in good or evil.     You can choose to disobey authority if you feel it is morally wrong.    The experiment was not carried out under fear of death for disobeying .    It was just a man in a white coat saying he was in charge.   It's a long time since I saw that but he never looked threatening, just authoritative, and I remember fervently hoping that I would have been one of the minority who walked out.    It was a completely different situation to wartime authority which is total.     
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Mark
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4955 on: June 02, 2013, 12:20 AM »
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Whilst a great deal of the Bible
Yeah, the Bible's pretty bad as well but it seems the culture of Christianity is much better at evolving with secular morality which is another way of saying they're very good cherry pickers. Very Happy
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4956 on: June 02, 2013, 12:20 AM »
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Are you a moral nihilist like me, then?
I'm very much a moral nihilist, it's one of the simplest and most obvious philosophical logical deductions.
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4957 on: June 02, 2013, 12:22 AM »
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Blind obedience to authority brings in good or evil.     You can choose to disobey authority if you feel it is morally wrong.    The experiment was not carried out under fear of death for disobeying .    It was just a man in a white coat saying he was in charge.   It's a long time since I saw that but he never looked threatening, just authoritative, and I remember fervently hoping that I would have been one of the minority who walked out.    It was a completely different situation to wartime authority which is total.     

That's the point. It was about authority.

And no, it does not "bring in good or evil". The majority of those who take part in that experiment don't back out. Are you saying the majority of the world's population are evil?
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Clydey
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4958 on: June 02, 2013, 12:23 AM »
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I'm very much a moral nihilist, it's one of the simplest logical deductions.

Existential and moral nihilism seem almost self-evident.
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4959 on: June 02, 2013, 12:27 AM »
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Existential and moral nihilism seem almost self-evident.
Yes existential nihilism is the next thing right at the top of the list to use against religion. Existential and moral nihilism are the two cornerstones grounding the illogical nature of every religion, or more so I would singularly say the presupposition fallacy to religious beliefs. Here's where I kind of depressingly say that there's little point even making further argument against religion because they are self-evident and it's pretty much the only nail you need in the coffin.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4960 on: June 02, 2013, 12:35 AM »
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That's the point. It was about authority.

And no, it does not "bring in good or evil". The majority of those who take part in that experiment don't back out. Are you saying the majority of the world's population are evil?

Not quite.    But in certain circumstances a large proportion of people will go along with what in their hearts they know is wrong.    Most of the people taking part in that experiment, and it was only a handful so it is difficult to reach a conclusion, protested, but were told by "authority"to keep doing what they didn't want to do.     Why did a few defy authority?    Were they the incorruptibles?    It's really nothing to do with religion but I found it a bit disturbing.
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Aileen
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4961 on: June 02, 2013, 12:36 AM »
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Blind obedience to authority brings in good or evil.    You can choose to disobey authority if you feel it is morally wrong.    The experiment was not carried out under fear of death for disobeying     It was just a man in a white coat saying he was in charge.   It's a long time since I saw that but he never looked threatening, just authoritative, and I remember fervently hoping that I would have been one of the minority who walked out.    It was a completely different situation to wartime authority which is total.     
And that includes countries whose regimes are so repressive that those who disobey them, because they believe their ideas are morally wrong, are either severely punished or condemned to death. 
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Aileen
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4962 on: June 02, 2013, 12:42 AM »
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Not quite.    But in certain circumstances a large proportion of people will go along with what in their hearts they know is wrong.    Most of the people taking part in that experiment, and it was only a handful so it is difficult to reach a conclusion, protested, but were told by "authority"to keep doing what they didn't want to do.     Why did a few defy authority?    Were they the incorruptibles?    It's really nothing to do with religion but I found it a bit disturbing.
What I would like to know re the Milgram experiment is - What kind of people were involved?  For example, what were their nationalities?  What were their social backgrounds?  How educated were they?  How impressionable/weak-willed were they?
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4963 on: June 02, 2013, 12:52 AM »
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Religious institutions, schools and your parents are authority. People are naturally inclined to follow and believe what these authority figures tell them and when ideas are introduced to a younger mind it will be ingrained into them. This is why it's perfectly naturally for people to grow up to become suicide bombers when they have always been told by religious authority that it is what they should do.

Why did a few defy authority?    Were they the incorruptibles?
Maybe their parents were atheists who taught their children properly to always question everything and never blindly follow authority, even their own?
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Iluvandy
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Re: Religious Discussions « Reply #4964 on: June 02, 2013, 12:54 AM »
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What I would like to know re the Milgram experiment is - What kind of people were involved?  For example, what were their nationalities?  What were their social backgrounds?  How educated were they?  How impressionable/weak-willed were they?

As far as I remember, and it was a long time ago Aileen, it was in the US, just people picked at random from the street and asked to take part in the experiment which meant, they were told, administering electric shocks to a person in the next room who, unknown to them, was an actor.   There was a "scientist" overseeing the proceedings and he told them they must carry on with the shock treatment, even increase it, while the actor screamed in agony.    It was pretty horrible and I remember being very disappointed at how few refused.    Would I?    Who knows? 
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