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Should same-sex couples be parents?

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Daisy
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #60 on: February 13, 2011, 09:36 PM »
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Read about this on The Telegraph's website. There were over 1000 accompanying reader comments - so many of them oozing bigotry and religious fervour. I could only read a page or so before I became utterly depressed and had to leave it. Frown

The only thing I'd say is if a gal refers to her husband and you don't know she is in a same sex marriage and another gal turns up, it gets kind of confusing - same goes for two guys.
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Joe
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Boo hoo hoooooooo :'(

Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #61 on: February 13, 2011, 09:49 PM »
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Is that aimed at me?

What? No - haven't even read the thread - just saw Daisy mention the same sex marriage thing and thought I'd mention what I'd read today. Was pretty disgusted by the comments on the Telegraph site, so drew attention to it.
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eira_arian
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #62 on: February 13, 2011, 09:51 PM »
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No - that posted wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Aileen. Should have quoted the post - didn't think anyone would get in there before me - sorry!
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Joe
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Boo hoo hoooooooo :'(

Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #63 on: February 13, 2011, 10:05 PM »
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No - that posted wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Aileen. Should have quoted the post - didn't think anyone would get in there before me - sorry!

So was that one aimed at me?? wink
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eira_arian
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #64 on: February 13, 2011, 10:07 PM »
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Maybe, maybe not Wink lmao
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Hazybear
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #65 on: February 14, 2011, 08:24 PM »
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Hey better than that one is this rather contradictory idea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12442375

Sorry thought the Biblical teachings against homosexuality would suggest that same sex 'civil ceremony's' or 'marriages' shouldn't happen in the church? And before anyone start throwing around accusations against me or saying I'm being closed minded, my point here is that it would go completely against Christianity's teachings to say that same sex marriages should be able to be carried out within or by the church.
For the government to force the Church to accept even the concept of it's premises being used for such a purpose is not trying to encourage equality and makes sure peoples are all given the same rights, it would just be exchanging the positions, where the rights of Christians were oppressed in favour of the rights of the gay and lesbian community.
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Aileen
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #66 on: February 15, 2011, 02:26 AM »
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Hazel, I know your views on homsexuality in general, and you know mine because we discussed it all on the Religious Discussions thread, but I've just listened to one of the leading Clergy of St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral in Edinburgh on BBC's Newsnight Scotland, and what he had to say made a great deal of sense and made me think a bit more about the matter.

He feels that gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual ones if they wish to be married within a church, provided, of course that the minister, vicar, priest of that church is willing to allow this to happen - and, as you probably know, clergy have the right to refuse to marry or bless heterosexual couples if they have good reasons for doing so.

He himself (and unfortunately I can't remember his name) has blessed several gay partnerships over the last few years, and he pointed to a radical change in public thinking over the past decade, a change which he feels should be reflected in the church.

He did admit that his views were contradictory to those held by Anglican traditionalists, but, in his opinion, he felt that, if this idea is accepted in England and Wales, Scotland should perhaps consider coming into line; and given that the General Assembly of the C of S agreed, albeit by a narrow majority, to allow the ordination of a gay minister and is actively considering its future stance on this matter, then that too perhaps could be an option, although given how long it takes this body to make up its mind about anything, Rolling Eyes we could be talking about years, even decades, here.

Basically this senior clergyman's views were that gay couples who are practising Christians should be entitled to the same love of Jesus Christ as heterosexual ones, and I have absolutely no argument with that, but he stressed very strongly that no governmental pressure should be put on any denomination to force the issue.

I realise we've strayed a bit from the theme of this thread, but the current topic is relevant to it, because - and this is something nobody has mentioned - what about the position of the children of gay couples.  Should they have the same rights of baptism as the children of heterosexual couples?  Of couse they should, but there will be those who will raise their eyebrows and start spouting about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generation, but why should innocent children suffer for the iniquities of their forebears, whatever these iniquities might be - and clearly in the eyes of many Christians homosexuality is a sin simply because it says so in the Bible.

Homosexuals are born, not made, Hazel - a fact that wasn't understood in biblical times, or indeed until very recent times - so should they still be condemned to eternal hellfire and damnation by the church because of a quirk of nature at the time of their conception?  I'll bet that most churches will have gay members in their congregation, although I suspect many will be afraid to openly admit it for fear of being regarded as religious outcasts.

As for your second paragraph, my understanding from what I've been hearing is that the government will not force any denomination to act against its wishes, and neither should they.  The decision should be in the hands of each individal church in each denomination.

I know you'll come back and throw the Bible verbatim at me, Smile but I'm glad that at least there is some softening in religious attitudes toward homosexuality.  I've said before that the church should get itself into the 21st century and stop adhering slavishly to words and commands made thousands of years ago when they were written in an age of ignorance about the biological idiosyncrasies of human reproduction.
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Daisy
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #67 on: February 15, 2011, 07:56 AM »
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I realise we've strayed a bit from the theme of this thread, but the current topic is relevant to it, because - and this is something nobody has mentioned - what about the position of the children of gay couples.  Should they have the same rights of baptism as the children of heterosexual couples?  Of couse they should, but there will be those who will raise their eyebrows and start spouting about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generation, but why should innocent children suffer for the iniquities of their forebears, whatever these iniquities might be - and clearly in the eyes of many Christians homosexuality is a sin simply because it says so in the Bible.



You make some excellent points throughout your entire post, as usual Aileen.

On the subject of the children of same sex couples, I was wondering what the child/children call their "parents".  e.g. in the case of Elton John who I believe was the sperm donor - is he called Dad, and if so, what is Elton's partner called?
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Joe
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Boo hoo hoooooooo :'(

Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #68 on: February 15, 2011, 09:11 AM »
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Hazel, I know your views on homsexuality in general, and you know mine because we discussed it all on the Religious Discussions thread, but I've just listened to one of the leading Clergy of St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral in Edinburgh on BBC's Newsnight Scotland, and what he had to say made a great deal of sense and made me think a bit more about the matter.

He feels that gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual ones if they wish to be married within a church, provided, of course that the minister, vicar, priest of that church is willing to allow this to happen - and, as you probably know, clergy have the right to refuse to marry or bless heterosexual couples if they have good reasons for doing so.

He himself (and unfortunately I can't remember his name) has blessed several gay partnerships over the last few years, and he pointed to a radical change in public thinking over the past decade, a change which he feels should be reflected in the church.

He did admit that his views were contradictory to those held by Anglican traditionalists, but, in his opinion, he felt that, if this idea is accepted in England and Wales, Scotland should perhaps consider coming into line; and given that the General Assembly of the C of S agreed, albeit by a narrow majority, to allow the ordination of a gay minister and is actively considering its future stance on this matter, then that too perhaps could be an option, although given how long it takes this body to make up its mind about anything, Rolling Eyes we could be talking about years, even decades, here.

Basically this senior clergyman's views were that gay couples who are practising Christians should be entitled to the same love of Jesus Christ as heterosexual ones, and I have absolutely no argument with that, but he stressed very strongly that no governmental pressure should be put on any denomination to force the issue.

I realise we've strayed a bit from the theme of this thread, but the current topic is relevant to it, because - and this is something nobody has mentioned - what about the position of the children of gay couples.  Should they have the same rights of baptism as the children of heterosexual couples?  Of couse they should, but there will be those who will raise their eyebrows and start spouting about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generation, but why should innocent children suffer for the iniquities of their forebears, whatever these iniquities might be - and clearly in the eyes of many Christians homosexuality is a sin simply because it says so in the Bible.

Homosexuals are born, not made, Hazel - a fact that wasn't understood in biblical times, or indeed until very recent times - so should they still be condemned to eternal hellfire and damnation by the church because of a quirk of nature at the time of their conception?  I'll bet that most churches will have gay members in their congregation, although I suspect many will be afraid to openly admit it for fear of being regarded as religious outcasts.

As for your second paragraph, my understanding from what I've been hearing is that the government will not force any denomination to act against its wishes, and neither should they.  The decision should be in the hands of each individal church in each denomination.

I know you'll come back and throw the Bible verbatim at me, Smile but I'm glad that at least there is some softening in religious attitudes toward homosexuality.  I've said before that the church should get itself into the 21st century and stop adhering slavishly to words and commands made thousands of years ago when they were written in an age of ignorance about the biological idiosyncrasies of human reproduction.

Excellent post.
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Bevc
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #69 on: February 15, 2011, 09:14 AM »
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On the subject of the children of same sex couples, I was wondering what the child/children call their "parents".  e.g. in the case of Elton John who I believe was the sperm donor - is he called Dad, and if so, what is Elton's partner called?

Why not Dad and Dad or Mum and Mum?  They are both parents but you just have 2 of them Very Happy

And re Aileens point about baptism (though it's something I'd never 'do' to my kids). If a gay couple strongly believe in it, then let them!  It doesn't hurt anyone.  The only people that are afronted are those that are narrow-minded Eyebrow raise.  and because it's written down somewhere (Bible) doesn't always mean it's right.
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Daisy
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #70 on: February 15, 2011, 10:24 AM »
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Why not Dad and Dad or Mum and Mum?  They are both parents but you just have 2 of them Very Happy



I thought that too and wondered how confusing it might be - however with today's extended families there are often two "Mums".  Having said all that, the whole situation for the children of same sex couples is irregular (at this moment in time) but it may all change in the next 20 years when I can see surrogates becoming more popular with businesswomen who don't want to take the time to feel unwell (morning sickness) etc and for women in general who don't want to lose their figures (right into shallowville here) ...   
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Hazybear
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #71 on: February 15, 2011, 11:49 AM »
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Hazel, I know your views on homsexuality in general, and you know mine because we discussed it all on the Religious Discussions thread, but I've just listened to one of the leading Clergy of St Mary's Episcopal Cathedral in Edinburgh on BBC's Newsnight Scotland, and what he had to say made a great deal of sense and made me think a bit more about the matter.

He feels that gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual ones if they wish to be married within a church, provided, of course that the minister, vicar, priest of that church is willing to allow this to happen - and, as you probably know, clergy have the right to refuse to marry or bless heterosexual couples if they have good reasons for doing so.

He himself (and unfortunately I can't remember his name) has blessed several gay partnerships over the last few years, and he pointed to a radical change in public thinking over the past decade, a change which he feels should be reflected in the church.

He did admit that his views were contradictory to those held by Anglican traditionalists, but, in his opinion, he felt that, if this idea is accepted in England and Wales, Scotland should perhaps consider coming into line; and given that the General Assembly of the C of S agreed, albeit by a narrow majority, to allow the ordination of a gay minister and is actively considering its future stance on this matter, then that too perhaps could be an option, although given how long it takes this body to make up its mind about anything, Rolling Eyes we could be talking about years, even decades, here.

Basically this senior clergyman's views were that gay couples who are practising Christians should be entitled to the same love of Jesus Christ as heterosexual ones, and I have absolutely no argument with that, but he stressed very strongly that no governmental pressure should be put on any denomination to force the issue.

I realise we've strayed a bit from the theme of this thread, but the current topic is relevant to it, because - and this is something nobody has mentioned - what about the position of the children of gay couples.  Should they have the same rights of baptism as the children of heterosexual couples?  Of couse they should, but there will be those who will raise their eyebrows and start spouting about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generation, but why should innocent children suffer for the iniquities of their forebears, whatever these iniquities might be - and clearly in the eyes of many Christians homosexuality is a sin simply because it says so in the Bible.

Homosexuals are born, not made, Hazel - a fact that wasn't understood in biblical times, or indeed until very recent times - so should they still be condemned to eternal hellfire and damnation by the church because of a quirk of nature at the time of their conception?  I'll bet that most churches will have gay members in their congregation, although I suspect many will be afraid to openly admit it for fear of being regarded as religious outcasts.

As for your second paragraph, my understanding from what I've been hearing is that the government will not force any denomination to act against its wishes, and neither should they.  The decision should be in the hands of each individal church in each denomination.

I know you'll come back and throw the Bible verbatim at me, Smile but I'm glad that at least there is some softening in religious attitudes toward homosexuality.  I've said before that the church should get itself into the 21st century and stop adhering slavishly to words and commands made thousands of years ago when they were written in an age of ignorance about the biological idiosyncrasies of human reproduction.

I don't care about the kids or baptism...though will say that at infant baptism it is asked whether the parents are going to raise the children in Christian environment and beliefs, I'd question how that would be the case.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with the above mentioned cleric, his views go against the teachings of the Bible and you can't compromise the word of God Shrug

Christ says to love all men as he loves us. I don't hate gays, far be it one of my best friends is gay- that doesn't mean that I agree with his lifestyle. Just because we love doesn't mean we're to agree with sinful choices...and I would point out that I class sex before marriage (in the Biblical sense of a man and a woman) altogether as being sinful in God's eyes.

I know I'm probably digging myself into a hole here where I'm accused of being homophobic and closed minded, probably fanatical as well. Personally I don't care Shrug For the church to go so against the will and statues of God in this manner would only show how sinful and far from God the church as an institution has gone. Just because the world at large says we should do it doesn't mean we should, and I can take the flak that comes with that, it's not like I'm about to get stoned or thrown to the lions for sticking by my beliefs.

Homosexuals can be Christians yes, but if they choose to live in a sexual relationship with a partner then they are not living the way Christ commanded. We all sin yes, but we're meant to learn from that, not continue in it. A old lecturer of mine was the most lovely guy ever. He is catholic and gay and for him there was never any argument, he is single and celibate and will remain so. For him his sexual preference does not give him the right to go against God, he would rather stay single in this life and try his best to live for God and then have an eternity of experiencing personally the love of God and a complete and utter joy at being in God's presence.

-Sorry Mark, know we're kind of off topic Smile
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Daisy
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #72 on: February 15, 2011, 12:58 PM »
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You can't ALL be right, but you can ALL be wrong ...



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Mark
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #73 on: February 15, 2011, 12:59 PM »
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You can't ALL be right, but you can ALL be wrong ...




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Aileen
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Re: Should same-sex couples be parents? « Reply #74 on: February 15, 2011, 03:55 PM »
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I don't care about the kids or baptism...though will say that at infant baptism it is asked whether the parents are going to raise the children in Christian environment and beliefs, I'd question how that would be the case.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with the above mentioned cleric, his views go against the teachings of the Bible and you can't compromise the word of God Shrug

Christ says to love all men as he loves us. I don't hate gays, far be it one of my best friends is gay- that doesn't mean that I agree with his lifestyle. Just because we love doesn't mean we're to agree with sinful choices...and I would point out that I class sex before marriage (in the Biblical sense of a man and a woman) altogether as being sinful in God's eyes.

I know I'm probably digging myself into a hole here where I'm accused of being homophobic and closed minded, probably fanatical as well. Personally I don't care Shrug For the church to go so against the will and statues of God in this manner would only show how sinful and far from God the church as an institution has gone. Just because the world at large says we should do it doesn't mean we should, and I can take the flak that comes with that, it's not like I'm about to get stoned or thrown to the lions for sticking by my beliefs.

Homosexuals can be Christians yes, but if they choose to live in a sexual relationship with a partner then they are not living the way Christ commanded. We all sin yes, but we're meant to learn from that, not continue in it. A old lecturer of mine was the most lovely guy ever. He is catholic and gay and for him there was never any argument, he is single and celibate and will remain so. For him his sexual preference does not give him the right to go against God, he would rather stay single in this life and try his best to live for God and then have an eternity of experiencing personally the love of God and a complete and utter joy at being in God's presence.

-Sorry Mark, know we're kind of off topic Smile
We aren't really that much off topic because there is a connection here.

I regard myself as a Christian, Hazel, but spoke here from the heart, not from any religious belief.  The truth is that, from our past discussions, you and I could go on debating this subject ad infinitum and never reach any agreement. Smile

All I will say is that that clergyman sounded a truly caring and compasssionate man - and to me compassion part of Christ's teaching, regardless of pronouncements based on ignorance made centuries before his birth.

Also I find your comment that you don't care about the kids or baptism a little strange coming from somebody who is a practising Christian.  According to the Bible (King James) "Jesus said, Suffer [allow] little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."  I take that to mean that ALL children are innocent and therefore should not be made to suffer for any wrongdoings, whether perceived or true, committed by their parents.

However, the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that the church can no longer continue to remain hidebound by a belief that has for some time been proved by medical science to be totally incorrect.  It is not, therefore, compromising the word of God if it chooses to allow gay couples to be married or blessed within its premises, but I realise that centuries of bigoted, blinkered belief cannot be overturned by a whim of government.

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