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Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
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Scottish politics

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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1110 on: September 24, 2013, 06:51 PM »
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Aileen please stop patronising Yes voters,
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1111 on: September 24, 2013, 06:58 PM »
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@Althusser.   Yes, nowhere, or perhaps more accurately,  no further forward.   Under Labour the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.    What party wiould suggest can change the mindset of Westminster governments?
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Connor
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1112 on: September 24, 2013, 07:00 PM »
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Aileen please stop patronising Yes voters,

You sure?
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1113 on: September 24, 2013, 07:14 PM »
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You sure?

YES
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althusser
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1114 on: September 24, 2013, 07:51 PM »
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@Althusser.   Yes, nowhere, or perhaps more accurately,  no further forward.   Under Labour the rich got richer and the poor got poorer.    What party wiould suggest can change the mindset of Westminster governments?
The rich tended to get richer yes, though there was some more progressive taxation. On the poor, alot of families were lifted out of poverty e.g the working families tax credit gave some poorer families several thousand pounds more per year. Overall, not enough done, definitely not - but some groups were further forward.

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Littlebuddha
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1115 on: September 24, 2013, 08:10 PM »
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The Labour party lost its way in Scotland. They took to much for granted and were shocked when they were beaten by the SNP. I am sure many Scots are still socialist but Scottish Labour is still controlled by Westminster. I want a party that has its own ideas and is not beholding to any one. The SNP has been good for Scotland and has ran the country well. I will have no hesitation in voting yes. Westminster has too much control over its MP's in all parties.A Federal System would have worked well but it has been rejected so there is not much left to argue about. I look forward to the future and hope that Scotland does become an independent country again.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1116 on: September 24, 2013, 08:27 PM »
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The rich tended to get richer yes, though there was some more progressive taxation. On the poor, alot of families were lifted out of poverty e.g the working families tax credit gave some poorer families several thousand pounds more per year. Overall, not enough done, definitely not - but some groups were further forward.



Tinkering with the tax system means the rich get richer and some of the poor get to be a little bit better off.   I don't believe in tax credits and top ups.    All you are doing is perpetuating a flawed system and subsidising companies who underpay their workers.   I don't see a good future within the UK.
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boogers
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1117 on: September 24, 2013, 08:55 PM »
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Tinkering with the tax system means the rich get richer and some of the poor get to be a little bit better off.   I don't believe in tax credits and top ups.    All you are doing is perpetuating a flawed system and subsidising companies who underpay their workers.   I don't see a good future within the UK.

So it look like an independent Scotland will have to reduce it's deficit drastically, post independence. That begs the question: how is it going to do so, without making things very much worse for the less financially well off members of society?

Raise taxes? That'd **** over the poor. if I'm earning 120k a year, a 4.5% increase won't put a dent in my lifestyle. If  I'm earning 16k a year, I'm probably already finding it hard to make ends meet so that's going to have a massively disproportionate impact on my way of life.

Lower spending? That'd **** the poor over as well. Less spending, fewer municipal service jobs, fewer social benefits, economic contraction. Pain.

This "nasty Tories are back" idea is intriguing as well. I have absolutely no love for the coalition, but I think they've done an adequate job at navigating the financial crisis. Perhaps you'd like to explain?

On that note, I'd love to see some figures backing up the idea that the current Government favours the South over the rest of the country. Got any to hand?
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althusser
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1118 on: September 24, 2013, 09:08 PM »
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So it look like an independent Scotland will have to reduce it's deficit drastically, post independence. That begs the question: how is it going to do so, without making things very much worse for the less financially well off members of society?

Raise taxes? That'd **** over the poor. if I'm earning 120k a year, a 4.5% increase won't put a dent in my lifestyle. If  I'm earning 16k a year, I'm probably already finding it hard to make ends meet so that's going to have a massively disproportionate impact on my way of life.

THAT IS WHY YOU NEED PROGRESSIVE TAXATION> YOU CAN RAISE TAX FOR BETTER OFF< BUT NOT WORST OFF

Lower spending? That'd **** the poor over as well. Less spending, fewer municipal service jobs, fewer social benefits, economic contraction. Pain.

EXACTLY SO. THIS IS WHY THE COALITION HAVE FAILED ABYSMALLY. ALMOST NO GROWTH FOR YEARS, FOR THE REASONS YOU MENTION

This "nasty Tories are back" idea is intriguing as well. I have absolutely no love for the coalition, but I think they've done an adequate job at navigating the financial crisis. Perhaps you'd like to explain?

THE TORIES WERE CALLING FOR MORE DE_REGULATION OF THE BANKS PRIOR TO THE CRISIS - EXACTLY THE WRONG CALL. SO THEY WERE CULPABLE ALONG WITH LABOUR. AND THEY HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN 'NASTY' AT TIMES IN THEIR ATTITUDE TO WELFARE CLAIMANTS.

On that note, I'd love to see some figures backing up the idea that the current Government favours the South over the rest of the country. Got any to hand?

I OPPOSE SCOTTISH NATIONALISM TOO THOUGH

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boogers
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1119 on: September 24, 2013, 09:31 PM »
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Hey, Althusser - good points that I'd like to debate with you... but hard to read. To quote bits of a post, you can do:

[quote]the text to quote[/quote]

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boogers
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1120 on: September 24, 2013, 09:46 PM »
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THAT IS WHY YOU NEED PROGRESSIVE TAXATION> YOU CAN RAISE TAX FOR BETTER OFF< BUT NOT WORST OFF

Yes, absolutely - and I say this as someone who's hit hard by any progressive taxation. Unfortunately Salmond and his cronies are just as corrupt and influenced as any other politician, which makes this an unlikely option.

Let us imagine for a moment that the 4.5% is met entirely through progressive taxation that doesn't burden the lower rate tax payer.

The truly rich move to Monaco (or what remains of the Union)
The upper middle class continue to employ a variety of cunning but legal tax avoidance schemes.
The lower middle class get screwed over.

Quote
EXACTLY SO. THIS IS WHY THE COALITION HAVE FAILED ABYSMALLY. ALMOST NO GROWTH FOR YEARS, FOR THE REASONS YOU MENTION

I think the jury is out on that one.

Quote
THE TORIES WERE CALLING FOR MORE DE_REGULATION OF THE BANKS PRIOR TO THE CRISIS - EXACTLY THE WRONG CALL. SO THEY WERE CULPABLE ALONG WITH LABOUR.

I'm not arguing culpability (though, really, only those in power at the time can be truly culpable)

Quote
AND THEY HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN 'NASTY' AT TIMES IN THEIR ATTITUDE TO WELFARE CLAIMANTS.

And yet, I'm a fair bit less well off under the coalition than I was under Labour. Some examples to look at would be nice...
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althusser
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1121 on: September 24, 2013, 10:09 PM »
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yes Boogers, agree with you regarding Salmond, who is a smug shallow populist and opportunist.

On taxation. There is the argument that high earners will clear off if taxes are high. But I think this is sometimes exagerated, There are many countries in Europe with much higher levels of progressive taxation than the UK, and they still have many resident millionaires. Many people threaten to move (just like when people talk about winning the lottery, people say 'you won't see me for dust' but in fact nearly all winners stay in UK) but in fact even the moneyed-billionaire classes are often homebirds when push comes to shove. Certainly, I think relatively modest increases in the top rate would not have much effect.

on culpability - yes you have to blame the incumbents. But I think also the architects of the approach, which were the thatcher governments and the 'big bang' financial reforms of the 80s. I'm not trying to party-political point score here as all the main parties have a big share of current problems.

I think with the coalition they cut too hard too fast, which led to the knock on problems you mention. Much easier to cut deficit as the economy grows (and to be fair, before the economic crash, Labour had a good record of cutting debt as growth continued. Problem was they helped blow up the housing price bubble, along with credit boom, contributing to the disastrous crash)

On welfare, particular cuts or changes can be debated. One of my concerns is the language sometimes used which can stigmatise claimants. It causes additional stress for those who find themselves out of work through no fault of their own e.g factory workers who after decades of work get laid off.
[ Last edit by althusser September 25, 2013, 07:10 AM ] IP Logged
Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1122 on: September 25, 2013, 10:53 AM »
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Here are answers to frequently asked questions about an independent Scotland. If you do not see the information you are looking for, you can submit a question using the form on the bottom of the page.

What would independence mean for my State Pension and Credits?
The Scottish Government has published its detailed proposals for pensions in an independent Scotland, including the state pension and related benefits.

What about the European Union?
The Scottish Government proposes to agree the terms of Scotland’s continued membership of the European Union between the date of the referendum, and the  proposed date of independence in March 2016.
   
What about pensions in an independent Scotland?
Your state pension will be paid in the same way, but simply by the Scottish Government rather than Westminster.

What would independence mean for my public sector pension?
The Scottish Government has published detailed proposals for pensions in an independent Scotland, including public sector pensions. A Yes vote offers the opportunity to ensure future negotiations will be positive and inclusive.
   
Will independence address unfairness in our society?
Building a fairer society has been and remains at the heart of the Yes Scotland campaign.
   
I've never voted SNP, why should I vote Yes?
The referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country is an entirely separate matter from which political party, if any, you usually support.
Supporters of Yes (just like supporters of the No campaign) have a range of different views. 
For example, the Yes Scotland Advisory Board is chaired by former Labour MP Dennis Canavan, and also includes, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Greens' Patrick Harvie, the SSP’s Colin Fox, as well as people who have no party political background.

What about Faslane?
On independence, Scotland will inherit the barracks, air bases and naval bases on its territory, including Faslane. These will form the starting point for a new Scottish Defence Force.
   
What will independence mean for UK-wide organisations?
Scotland will need the full range of government services as an independent country and so the expertise of those currently working to deliver services UK-wide will be essential.
Some organisations will transfer their Scottish based operations to the management of the Scottish Government, while we anticipate others will continue to deliver shared services, with some examples of these given below.
   
What about immigration?
At the outset, the immigration system would be similar to what exists now, and it would then of course depend on who was elected as the Scottish Government as to what changes would be introduced.
   
What about the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act?
The referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country is an entirely separate matter from the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act.

What about sectarianism?
Scotland's Home Rule and independence movements have been peaceful, civic and democratic. This is something we should be proud of and the fact we will move to independence only after a fair and democratic vote, which has been agreed by all the political parties, gives us a guarantee that the process of independence will be peaceful and consensual.

What happens to our justice system?
Justice is already a devolved matter, decided by the Scottish Government and Parliament.
   
What will happen to tuition fees in an independent Scotland?
Because policy for Universities, including tuition fees, is already under the control of the Scottish Government and Parliament, independence will not have any immediate impact on this issue.
Whether or not Scotland continues with the policy of free tuition will depend on who is elected to form the Scottish Government at the elections scheduled for May 2016.  However, we know that the current Scottish Government is committed to maintaining free tuition. 
   
Would the Queen still be head of state in an independent Scotland?
The Scottish Government’s proposal is that the Queen remains Head of State in Scotland, in the same way as she is currently Head of State in independent nations such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
   
Who can vote in the referendum on Scottish independence?
The franchise for the referendum is currently being finalised by the Scottish Parliament, after the general principles were agreed by the UK and Scottish Governments in October 2012.
It is expected that the list of those who are eligible to vote will be the same as the list of those who can vote in Scottish Parliament and local authority elections, with the addition of 16 and 17 year olds who have not previously been able to vote.
This means that the following groups of people will be entitled to register to vote:
   
What about the UK's national debt?
The precise split of debt between Scotland and the rest of the UK would depend on the agreement reached between the two governments.
   
What will happen to benefits in an independent Scotland?
On independence day in 2016, benefits will continue to be paid as they are just now.
   
What about NATO?
The current Scottish Government supports continued membership of NATO, albeit with the significant caveat that membership should not require retention of nuclear weapons in Scotland.
   
Does Scotland have what it takes be independent?
The question is not whether Scotland can afford to be independent. We have the people, resources and ingenuity to prosper. Instead we should be asking, why isn’t Scotland doing better, given all the natural and human wealth we enjoy?

What about the NHS in an independent Scotland?
Many important government services are already the responsibility of the Scottish Government and Parliament, so will not be directly impacted by independence.

What about the organisation of health and social care services in Scotland?
At the moment, health services are delivered by Health Boards across Scotland and social care by local councils. There is, of course, now greater integration and co-operation between health and social care services. These arrangements will not be changed by Scotland becoming independent.

What are the benefits of Scotland being independent?
The reason being independent will be better for you and for Scotland is simple. Being independent will mean the people who care most about Scotland – the people who live in Scotland – will be taking the decisions about our future.
   
What about the NHS's cross-border arrangements?
There have been claims that independence would make it more difficult for people in Scotland to get specialist treatment elsewhere in the UK.
   
What does being independent mean?
Being independent means a lot of different things to each and every one of us. For some, becoming independent is when we get our first car, or our first home. Or perhaps when we start our own family. It is the point we take responsibility for our own future and our own success. Yes, there are ups and downs, but we plan, we prepare, we take out insurance and we get through even the most difficult times.
   
Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Scotland is a country rich in resources, and undoubtedly has what it takes to be a more prosperous and fairer nation.

http://www.yesscotland.net/answers?text=&issue=All&page=1

I'm very surprised that currency isn't a frequently asked question. Think



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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1123 on: September 25, 2013, 06:55 PM »
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Thanks for posting that Bev.  Very interesting.  Re the currency question, it seems to me from what I've read is that Salmond is keen to keep the pound, because he claims it will enable an independent Scotland to achieve an AAA credit rating, despite it having been withdrawn from the UK, although quite how and when he thinks this will happen isn't clear.

He also insists that his plan to enter a currency union with the rest of the UK, should Scots vote for independence, would give Scotland "full fiscal powers," despite warnings that, if agreed by the rest of Britain, it would place severe constraints on economic policy north of the Border.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1124 on: September 25, 2013, 06:57 PM »
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Aileen4Primeinister
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