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Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
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Scottish politics

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Masaka
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1620 on: February 22, 2014, 10:53 AM »
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Are you deliberately acting naive about politics, Masaka? Your description of Salmonds debating style could be levelled at any politician by an opponent, until we come to 6) Salmond then becomes abusive and starts saying you all hate me, stamps his feet in a temper tantrum, and departs without giving an answer; where you're own ill-informed prejudice is fully exposed. As to the European chestnut - Salmonds right; no sensible scenario would see Scotland excluded from the EU, none whatsoever. The Spanish will have to deal with their concerns in some other way, they won't be excluding Scotland. They can't afford to, and they wouldn't be allowed.

I think we now need to agree to disagree here. You, if you don't mind me saying,  are coming over as blinkered as I am.  For the record prior to the independence debate, I had no real opinion of Salmond other than he looked like he was on good grub. My dislike of him has arisen solely through his behaviour during this independence debate. Personally I think he is lying through his teeth to Scots, and making a lot of it up as he goes along.

Note the comment with regards to Scottish membership of the Euro came from the horses mouth as it were - Barroso - president of the EU. It has also been said by other Euro politicians. I appreciate it is a really contentious issue, and have no wish to fall out with you or anyone else about this. However rather like Salmond the "yes" brigade are refusing to accept any opinion or view that contradicts their own.
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althusser
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1621 on: February 22, 2014, 11:45 AM »
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Yes it was cringeful stuff from Salmond. Bringing out the flag AFTER he'd won - and with him being the leader of the nationalist movement, the political intent was as clear as it was crass. Honestly, could he not leave it all alone for a day and just enjoy the victory? But it is typical of his ill-thought through, opportunist politics. Thankfully has since been increasingly exposed on this, notably with his fiasco of a currency policy.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1622 on: February 22, 2014, 01:48 PM »
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I replied to Elena, bbh, and Fiverings has replied to Masaka.    I was on to a lighter vein with FCR on the whiskey question when MW decided to freeze and is now not responding on that page.     I do not have time to do it all again so I will say what I was intending to finish with, and it is what really matters in this debate.    There is too much about Alex Salmond.    It is not about Alex Salmond.    It is about independence for Scotland.
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Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1623 on: February 22, 2014, 03:24 PM »
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@Bevc
Yes, the divorce is going to be very messy and very expensive for both parties.

And that's my point. The Scottish government, in a matter of days, have come out with a cost to rUK businesses if there isn't a shared currency should there be a yes vote but nothing about splitting up the UK anyway, shared currency or not. I guess they don't want to come across as negative.
[ Last edit by Bevc February 22, 2014, 03:30 PM ] IP Logged
wimbledonwestie
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1624 on: February 22, 2014, 07:35 PM »
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That the SNP refuse to listen to those who are actually involved in the running of  the EU eg Barosso, ridiculing what they say, is somewhat alarming.
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Elena
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1625 on: February 22, 2014, 08:17 PM »
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Getting away from Alex Salmond , I watched "Scottish independence: John Swinney answers your questions" on BBC News Scotland website. 20 minutes of him giving the same answer to a question nobody asked (must admit my attention wandered at times). I just don't get it - seems blind faith is required. That may be enough - who knows?

Fiverings - I made a similar point to Masaka a few posts earlier - perhaps with less colourful language, and quoted Martin Kettle - also "naive about politics" presumably?
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1626 on: February 22, 2014, 09:38 PM »
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That the SNP refuse to listen to those who are actually involved in the running of  the EU eg Barosso, ridiculing what they say, is somewhat alarming.
   Of course they don't. Politics is all about posturing, on both sides. Both sides are playing to the audience, everyone knows that whatever the outcome of the referendum we'll all still live in the same world and have to come to sensible arrangement. We have to decide who is making the more convincing case. I think the European aspect of the debate is a no-brainer, others have different views.
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scotnadian
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1627 on: February 22, 2014, 09:40 PM »
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My Brit passport is up for renewal. Will I need a Scottish one now and will I be eligible as I don't live there.
Anyone know?
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1628 on: February 22, 2014, 09:52 PM »
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Fiverings - I made a similar point to Masaka a few posts earlier - perhaps with less colourful language, and quoted Martin Kettle - also "naive about politics" presumably?

    Yes I saw that piece in the Guardian.  Kettle tries hard to be reasonable under a headline accusing the SNP of behaving like spoiled children.  So far these commentators have made no attempt to think about alternatives to independence for Scotland; they can only point to flaws in the proposals for how independence can be achieved, and point up all the difficulties without actually examining the alternatives.

Strange that the Guardian, which has been strident for reform  of Westminster, cannot make the connection between the agenda of political reform in the UK and the Scottish referendum.
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1629 on: February 22, 2014, 09:57 PM »
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My Brit passport is up for renewal. Will I need a Scottish one now and will I be eligible as I don't live there.
Anyone know?
   As I understand it from the White paper, Scottish passports will be issued to all people who secure Scottish citizenship. British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens - as well as Scottish born British citizens living outside Scotland. It will also be open to those who have Scottish parents or grandparents, people who have lived here for 10 years, while migrants can apply for “naturalisation.”  So you're covered aaweys quine.
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scotnadian
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1630 on: February 22, 2014, 10:10 PM »
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   As I understand it from the White paper, Scottish passports will be issued to all people who secure Scottish citizenship. British citizens “habitually resident” in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens - as well as Scottish born British citizens living outside Scotland. It will also be open to those who have Scottish parents or grandparents, people who have lived here for 10 years, while migrants can apply for “naturalisation.”  So you're covered aaweys quine.
Good to know,thx fiverings
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Elena
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1631 on: February 22, 2014, 10:18 PM »
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    Yes I saw that piece in the Guardian.  Kettle tries hard to be reasonable under a headline accusing the SNP of behaving like spoiled children.  So far these commentators have made no attempt to think about alternatives to independence for Scotland; they can only point to flaws in the proposals for how independence can be achieved, and point up all the difficulties without actually examining the alternatives.

Strange that the Guardian, which has been strident for reform  of Westminster, cannot make the connection between the agenda of political reform in the UK and the Scottish referendum.

Thanks for your response Fiverings. Fair enough - I wouldn't be happy with the answers given by SNP, but so what? You get a vote, I don't (quite rightly). I'm guessing you're unlikely to change your mind. Funnily whenever I see your name I can't help remembering that you refused to believe a photo posted on Maggie Mayhem's twitter was taken in the Lake District, and not Loch Lomond - even after Kim/Maggie had confirmed it! You said something like "if that's not Loch Lomond, then I'm an Englishman". How's that going for you?

Not sure what you mean by the political reform agenda in Scotland/UK. You didn't respond to my earlier post re Scotland voting in favour of FPTP.

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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1632 on: February 22, 2014, 10:32 PM »
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Thanks for your response Fiverings. Fair enough - I wouldn't be happy with the answers given by SNP, but so what? You get a vote, I don't (quite rightly). I'm guessing you're unlikely to change your mind. Funnily whenever I see your name I can't help remembering that you refused to believe a photo posted on Maggie Mayhem's twitter was taken in the Lake District, and not Loch Lomond - even after Kim/Maggie had confirmed it! You said something like "if that's not Loch Lomond, then I'm an Englishman". How's that going for you?

Not sure what you mean by the political reform agenda in Scotland/UK. You didn't respond to my earlier post re Scotland voting in favour of FPTP.


   I'd forgotten about the Maggie Mayhem pic - just shows one close-up stretch of mountains and water is much like another, but my tongue was firmly in my cheek anyway!! Sorry didn't register the post about FPTP, what was the question/point again?  I am unlikely to change my mind. There are very mixed messages coming through on the ground from the campaigns. There was one group out in my local area today campaigning under a Scottish Labour banner, issuing leaflets attacking the SNP and inviting me to join Labour, and almost as an afterthought offering Better Together vote No stickers. Thats really going to engage with the Tories and Liberals that abound locally. Further on there was a group ( 2 English, one Canadian) urging me to vote yes - no sign of party allegiance, but i guess SNP/Greens - but most significantly encouraging people to attend a meeting at a local school.
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Elena
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1633 on: February 22, 2014, 10:46 PM »
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Sorry didn't register the post about FPTP, what was the question/point again?
Sorry to quote myself, but


Fiverings said earlier "the Westminster first-past-the-post has produced a shotgun coalition. Do you really wonder why the Scots are anxious to make they most of their democratic mandate?  Whatever happens in September, this won't go away.  People outside Scotland are slowly realising what "we" ( pace Ionared) have known for decades;  just how inappropriate Westminster is for modern democracy".

But Scots voted both for and against FPTP in 2011. More for than against.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13318579:
Scotland's electorate has voted "no" in the referendum to change the system for electing MPs to Westminster. Out of 1,975,558 to cast their vote, 713,813 said "yes" and 1,249,375 said "no". Figures released by the Electoral Commission showed that Scotland recorded the highest turnout of voters - 50.7% - for the referendum in the UK.

I suppose I'm going to have to stop thinking of you as a reluctant Englishman, but it was fun while it lasted!
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #1634 on: February 23, 2014, 10:10 AM »
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^ I do admit I was perplexed by that result, even though Scotland, along with London and N Ireland were the most supportive regions. Certainly the big UK parties were strongly mobilised against it, and that will no doubt give comfort to the No campaign in the Scottish referendum.   The relatively high turnout in Scotland was of course due to the Scottish Parliament elections taking place at the same time, whereas it was local elections elsewhere ( not sure about London & NI)
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