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Poll
Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

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Scottish politics

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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #90 on: September 19, 2012, 03:17 AM »
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Thanks for the info Aileen.  I would agree that 16 is too young to vote (join army and marry in some cases) since you have to be 18 to buy alcohol and see an 18 rated movie, which in some cases, takes very little thought, though consequences from too much alcohol can have lasting effects.

That's rather steep for the referendum - population of Scotland isn't much more than here in NZ but we appear to do the same for about half the price.  I'd be very interested to see what's in the neutral mailshot. Think

Also, I didn't know that there's going to be some new criteria for joining the EU, so thanks for that Veronica. Very Happy

Pensions are a law unto themselves - minefield of rules how you can or cannot claim it here and in Australia. confused
Bev - I've no idea how the referendum costs were calculated but I agree that the suggested figure is pretty steep, and like I said could well rise considerably.  As far as I'm concerned it's money down the drain - money that could be much better spent elsewhere - but I suppose if it finally lays the idea of independence to rest (it's been rattling around for decades), then I reckon it's probably worth it.

Also the 1977 referendum on Scottish devolution had a condition attached, and I've just checked that - "The result of the referendum in Scotland was a narrow majority in favour of devolution (52% to 48%), but a condition of the referendum was that 40% of the total electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. Thus, with a turnout of 63.6%, only 32.9% had voted 'Yes'."  I feel strongly that the same condition should apply to the independence one, but then the 1977 one was organised by the UK parliament, not a bunch of visionaries in Edinburgh!
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #91 on: September 19, 2012, 10:26 AM »
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Also the 1977 referendum on Scottish devolution had a condition attached, and I've just checked that - "The result of the referendum in Scotland was a narrow majority in favour of devolution (52% to 48%), but a condition of the referendum was that 40% of the total electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. Thus, with a turnout of 63.6%, only 32.9% had voted 'Yes'."  I feel strongly that the same condition should apply to the independence one, but then the 1977 one was organised by the UK parliament, not a bunch of visionaries in Edinburgh!
  Can't agree with this - I remember the stushie at the time of the 1977 referendum that the dead were effectively voting no because of this requirement.  I think it should be a simple majority of those who can be bothered to vote - if you ain't interested  in an issue as big as this you forfeit the right to be counted.
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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #92 on: September 19, 2012, 10:49 AM »
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  Can't agree with this - I remember the stushie at the time of the 1977 referendum that the dead were effectively voting no because of this requirement.  I think it should be a simple majority of those who can be bothered to vote - if you ain't interested  in an issue as big as this you forfeit the right to be counted.
I have to say, I agree with you! If you can't be bothered to vote, whether it be in elections or referendums, you forfeit the right to be counted and also to complain about what you get!
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Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #93 on: September 19, 2012, 11:25 AM »
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What about those poor people that didn't get the chance to vote in the UK at the last election, what with the queues being so long Think

Perhaps they should do as they do in Australia and here in NZ, have the voting day on a weekend day - better chance to get to it, though the polling station isn't open as long as in the UK.  I wonder why it's always a Thursday in the UK search

In the United Kingdom, all general elections since 1935 have been held on a Thursday, and this has become a tradition, although not a requirement of the law — which only states that an election may be held on any day "except Saturdays, Sundays, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, bank holidays in any part of the United Kingdom and any day appointed for public thanksgiving and mourning". An explanation sometimes given for the choice of Thursday as polling day is that it was, in most towns, the traditional market day, although it has also been observed that the choice has practical advantages — with the outcome of the election being known by Friday, the new or continuing administration then has the weekend to organize itself in preparation for the "government shop opening for business" on Monday, the first day of the new week following the election.


No chance for a weekend day then Rolling Eyes
[ Last edit by Bevc September 19, 2012, 11:28 AM ] IP Logged
Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #94 on: September 19, 2012, 04:39 PM »
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I have to say, I agree with you! If you can't be bothered to vote, whether it be in elections or referendums, you forfeit the right to be counted and also to complain about what you get!
If you don't vote, how can you be counted? Smile  I do agree though that people who don't vote out of laziness should shut up if they're not happy with the result - and these are usually the ones who complain the loudest!

My fear though is that voter apathy could actually allow the Yes voters to carry it, simply because a lot (but certainly not all) of the electorate who are in favour of independence are moronic, hot-headed Anglophobes who'll be only too happy to turn out in droves, totally failing to see the difference between independence and racist bigotry.  We hear far too much about the Yes campaign and very little about the No campaign, so it's time the latter got their act together pdq.  The proposed referendum is only two years away and that's really quite a short time when you think of the amount of information that will need to be digested.

What about those poor people that didn't get the chance to vote in the UK at the last election, what with the queues being so long Think
Simply because it was a UK general election.  With the referendum, taking into account the number of people who won't be eligible to vote, even if Salmond is granted his wish to have 16/17 year olds given the right to vote, we're talking about a lot less than 5m people.  Anyway, as far as I can remember, these queues only happened in the more densely populated areas of England.

Quote
Perhaps they should do as they do in Australia and here in NZ, have the voting day on a weekend day - better chance to get to it, though the polling station isn't open as long as in the UK.  I wonder why it's always a Thursday in the UK search

In the United Kingdom, all general elections since 1935 have been held on a Thursday, and this has become a tradition, although not a requirement of the law — which only states that an election may be held on any day "except Saturdays, Sundays, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, bank holidays in any part of the United Kingdom and any day appointed for public thanksgiving and mourning". An explanation sometimes given for the choice of Thursday as polling day is that it was, in most towns, the traditional market day, although it has also been observed that the choice has practical advantages — with the outcome of the election being known by Friday, the new or continuing administration then has the weekend to organize itself in preparation for the "government shop opening for business" on Monday, the first day of the new week following the election.

No chance for a weekend day then Rolling Eyes
Thanks for that info.  Anyway I'm pleased that this means that the referendum will not be held, as Salmond originally proposed, on St Andrews Day in 2014, given that that's a Sunday, since 30 November also happens to be my birthday and I've no wish to share it with this event! Very Happy
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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #95 on: September 19, 2012, 04:55 PM »
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Bev - I've no idea how the referendum costs were calculated but I agree that the suggested figure is pretty steep, and like I said could well rise considerably.  As far as I'm concerned it's money down the drain - money that could be much better spent elsewhere - but I suppose if it finally lays the idea of independence to rest (it's been rattling around for decades), then I reckon it's probably worth it.

Also the 1977 referendum on Scottish devolution had a condition attached, and I've just checked that - "The result of the referendum in Scotland was a narrow majority in favour of devolution (52% to 48%), but a condition of the referendum was that 40% of the total electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. Thus, with a turnout of 63.6%, only 32.9% had voted 'Yes'."  I feel strongly that the same condition should apply to the independence one, but then the 1977 one was organised by the UK parliament, not a bunch of visionaries in Edinburgh!
Aileen, in the second paragraph, it says 40% of the 'total electorate' .........as opposed to 40% of the people who are actually voting! That seems to suggest that those who are 'not' voting are still having an affect on the result!
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Fiverings
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #96 on: September 19, 2012, 05:28 PM »
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My fear though is that voter apathy could actually allow the Yes voters to carry it, simply because a lot (but certainly not all) of the electorate who are in favour of independence are moronic, hot-headed Anglophobes who'll be only too happy to turn out in droves, totally failing to see the difference between independence and racist bigotry.
 Very Happy
   where on earth do you get that from Aileen? I could make similar rash and inaccurate inferences in the other direction about the Flag waving Unionist support for Rangers, for example. 
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Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #97 on: September 19, 2012, 07:39 PM »
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Anyway I'm pleased that this means that the referendum will not be held, as Salmond originally proposed, on St Andrews Day in 2014, given that that's a Sunday, since 30 November also happens to be my birthday and I've no wish to share it with this event! Very Happy

Think  wouldn't surprise me if the word was spread that it wasn't a general election and shouldn't fall under these conditions.

Never realised it was your birthday that day - our wedding anniversary Very Happy


What are the pro's and con's, in a nutshell for Scotland to become independent?  The things that the people of Scotland don't already have.  There are a number of things I can think of that are different compared to someone living in England.  What are the benefits of being independent/remaining part of the union?   Think
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #98 on: September 19, 2012, 08:34 PM »
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Bev - I've no idea how the referendum costs were calculated but I agree that the suggested figure is pretty steep, and like I said could well rise considerably.  As far as I'm concerned it's money down the drain - money that could be much better spent elsewhere - but I suppose if it finally lays the idea of independence to rest (it's been rattling around for decades), then I reckon it's probably worth it.

Also the 1977 referendum on Scottish devolution had a condition attached, and I've just checked that - "The result of the referendum in Scotland was a narrow majority in favour of devolution (52% to 48%), but a condition of the referendum was that 40% of the total electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. Thus, with a turnout of 63.6%, only 32.9% had voted 'Yes'."  I feel strongly that the same condition should apply to the independence one, but then the 1977 on
Bev - I've no idea how the referendum costs were calculated but I agree that the suggested figure is pretty steep, and like I said could well rise considerably.  As far as I'm concerned it's money down the drain - money that could be much better spent elsewhere - but I suppose if it finally lays the idea of independence to rest (it's been rattling around for decades), then I reckon it's probably worth it.

Also the 1977 referendum on Scottish devolution had a condition attached, and I've just checked that - "The result of the referendum in Scotland was a narrow majority in favour of devolution (52% to 48%), but a condition of the referendum was that 40% of the total electorate should vote in favour in order to make it valid. Thus, with a turnout of 63.6%, only 32.9% had voted 'Yes'."  I feel strongly that the same condition should apply to the independence one, but then the 1977 one was organised by the UK parliament, not a bunch of visionaries in Edinburgh!(quote)

Perhaps that could also apply to Westminster elections.      And it was possible to be a no vote simply by dying at the wrong time and having your name still on the voters 'roll.

Thus Hugh McDiarmid was a no voter - a lifelong supporter of independence.   As for membership of the EU surely England, Wales and NI would have to reapply also as the UK as

constituted when we joined would have substantially changed.      
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #99 on: September 20, 2012, 03:19 AM »
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   where on earth do you get that from Aileen? I could make similar rash and inaccurate inferences in the other direction about the Flag waving Unionist support for Rangers, for example. 

From what I've read, heard and experienced during my long lifetime.  There are, and always have been, a fair number of Anglophobes in this country.


Think  wouldn't surprise me if the word was spread that it wasn't a general election and shouldn't fall under these conditions.
Interesting point.

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Never realised it was your birthday that day - our wedding anniversary Very Happy
We both have the same excellent taste ... lol

Quote
What are the pro's and con's, in a nutshell for Scotland to become independent?  The things that the people of Scotland don't already have.  There are a number of things I can think of that are different compared to someone living in England.  What are the benefits of being independent/remaining part of the union?   Think
I'll leave that for somebody else to answer because as far as I'm concerned there are no benefits to be gained from independence since, as you point out, and I have done as well in an earlier post, Scotland already has a good degree of independence.
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Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #100 on: September 20, 2012, 10:31 AM »
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I thought I was going crazy that there didn't appear to be any overwhelming evidence for either cause but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Think
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #101 on: September 20, 2012, 03:46 PM »
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I thought I was going crazy that there didn't appear to be any overwhelming evidence for either cause but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Think
Not to worry.  The Scottish electorate have yet to hear overwhelming evidence for either cause. Rolling Eyes  Whilst the "Yes to independence" campaigners have been more forthcoming than the "No" campaigners so far, they've still failed to convince the undecided/apathetic voters (20% of the electorate, if you believe the SNP) that independence is the right way forward.  It doesn't help either that it has yet to be decided whether the referendum will take the form of a straight Yes or No question, or whether there will be an option to vote for Devo-Max, i.e. more powers for the Scottish parliament, but even what this entails has still to be clarified.  Also it doesn't help that Scots MPs at Westminster keep sticking their noses in and stirring the pot and that the "Yes" camp is divided amongst itself on certain issues.  Then there's the on-going discussions between Holyrood and Westminster (well, Cameron and Salmond, to be exact) about the referendum itself .....

Basically, as I understand it, what it all really boils down to is how far an independent Scotland would be able to sustain itself financially -

* Could an independent Scotland boast a viable economy and vibrant job market?

* How would the government go about raising taxes - would Scots end up paying more tax than people living in England and Wales?

* The impact on the State Pension - would pensioners end up being better or worse off?

* The impact on Welfare Benefits - would there be enough in the kitty to cover existing and future benefits?
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ChrisMac
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #102 on: September 24, 2012, 11:27 AM »
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lgriev10
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #103 on: September 24, 2012, 01:25 PM »
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Fantastic piece and a great performance!  Might cause a few unionists to at least adjust there Great Britain Blinkers to stop the reality getting in!  Of course if these people had anything like an open, inquiring mind, it would probably cause all remaining doubts to be swept away!
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #104 on: September 24, 2012, 01:32 PM »
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chrisMac.




Thank you ChrisMac.    Makes you wonder why there is any doubt about the way forward.
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