Home Search Calendar Help Login Register
Did you miss your activation email?
MurraysWorld Discussions  >  General Community  >  Chit Chat  >  Scottish politics 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Poll
Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 ... 256 Go Down Reply
Author

Scottish politics

 (Read 60140 times)
Bevc
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,040

Gender: Female
Location: Cambridge - New Zealand


I'd give up chocolate but I'm no quitter!

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #135 on: September 26, 2012, 01:52 AM »
Reply

I hope you think that I am being positive when I say that Scotland has nothing to be afraid of.

Funnily enough I was listening last week to a business man from Iceland describing how they are pulling themselves together, economically, since the banking crisis -( not that it is over).  During the interview it came to light that their economy is based on selling fish, tourism and the extraction of aluminium ore.  You want to hear business reasons as to why Scotland will be okay when independent, then I can assure you, there are alot more than Iceland would have and yet there it is, making no attempt to cling to a bigger state because it it scared.  No, instead they have relationships with neighbouring countries, the world around them, just like we would/will.

Fishing, forestry, manufacturing, tourism, whisky, oil, water, green energy technology, to name the first things that come to mind, collectively make a very good reason why we could expect a good future as an independent nation.  Especially when you ally that with the good feeling we command around the world, the respect many of our people are held in across all important fields of human endeavour, and across history. 

What do we have to be negative about, if we become independent?  Nothing. 

I honestly believe we are very lucky to be living in Scotland at this time.  While the rest of this poor, benighted isle can only choose between New Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem, we have the opportunity to choose  a party that can break out of this woeful, electoral cycle.

Excuse me, for tub thumping, this subject excites me just as much as Andys' tennis matches.

Very interesting points you make there.

I also came across this:-

Iceland—with its own currency, its own central bank, its own monetary policy, its own decision-making and its own rules—had policy options that euro-zone nations can only fantasize about. Its successes provide a vivid lesson in what euro countries gave up when they joined the monetary union. And, perhaps, a taste of what might be possible should they leave.

Iceland has a significant advantage over stressed euro-zone countries—a currency that could be devalued. That has turned its trade deficit into a surplus and smoothed its recovery.

Its currency devalued by half. That boosted exports, like Mr. Palsson's fish, and trimmed costly imports, like cars. The weakened krona was hard on homeowners who borrowed in foreign currency, but Iceland's judges and policy makers orchestrated mortgage relief. Expensive foreign goods also ignited inflation. Consumer prices have risen 26% since 2008.

I don't think that you'll want the pound to be less than a pound in Scotland, would you?

Apparently the high exchange against the US$ is making things difficult for businesses in NZ.  Perhaps they could be a love and raise it for them?
IP Logged
Fiverings
ATP Level
***
Posts: 2,779

Gender: Male
Location: Ayrshire


Andy Murray - Tennis Legend

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #136 on: September 26, 2012, 09:56 AM »
Reply

 

If reports are to be believed, Princes Charles doesn't want to be styled King Charles III, but instead wishes to call himself George VII.  That is if he ever does succeed to the throne!
 Well, he cetainly has plenty of names to choose from!  King Arthur, anyone?  
IP Logged
Alis
ATP Level
***
Posts: 2,855

Gender: Female
Location: Southern Hebrides

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #137 on: September 26, 2012, 01:14 PM »
Reply

I vaguely remember McCormick and his court action I was probably too young to be all that interested.  I do however remember the Scots Nats blowing up post-boxes, etc.  I even have a recollection of the fuss created when a group of 4 Scottish students managed to remove the Stone of Scone from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day, 1950, breaking it into two pieces in the process.

Incidentally it was McCormick who was responsible for merging the National Party of Scotland (NPS) and the Scottish Party in 1934 to form the Scottish National Party.  He fell out of love with the SNP in the early 1940s because he didn't like their idea of independence, but was instead a great advocate of Home Rule (or devolution), forming his own party, the Scottish Covenant Association, which for many years was a thorn in the flesh to the SNP because it attracted many more members than they did and even caused the defection of large numbers of their members.
If reports are to be believed, Princes Charles doesn't want to be styled King Charles III, but instead wishes to call himself George VII.  That is if he ever does succeed to the throne!

Thanks - that's really interesting, Aileen.  I can understand Charles not wanting to be associated with Charles l and Charles ll!
IP Logged
Caz
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 22,558


I'd like to be the good person my dog thinks I am!

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #138 on: September 26, 2012, 03:53 PM »
Reply

When you say you know a situation exists, do you just mean that you heard Osborne and a couple of his CBI mates make this unprovable accusation or do you personally have credible information from another source? 

And are you forgetting or did you not know that soon after that accusation, that a Scottish independence referendum was putting off would be investors,  was dropped in by Osborne while on some whistle stop visit to Scotland, the energy company, that one of these put-up men was chairman of went bust, so he, at least, was hardly speaking from a position of vaunted authority.  Also 3 different international companies invested  in Scotland that very month, one of whose, chairman, commented that the very notion of a future referendum or even independence had simply not been a factor in their decision to start manufacturing turbines here? 

You bemoan the negativity of Scottish people, when it comes to looking at our relationship with England, fair enough, there's alot of water under the bridge, some stuff still rankles but let's leave that alone, just now. But I simply must bemoan your negativity with regards to modern Scotland.  You are recounting a list of achievements that we can be proud of and yet you also think we should be scared of standing on our own two feet.  You are scared that we will be abandoned by global businesses, although you admit that the recent different governments of Britain have been poor.   

I hope you think that I am being positive when I say that Scotland has nothing to be afraid of.

Funnily enough I was listening last week to a business man from Iceland describing how they are pulling themselves together, economically, since the banking crisis -( not that it is over).  During the interview it came to light that their economy is based on selling fish, tourism and the extraction of aluminium ore.  You want to hear business reasons as to why Scotland will be okay when independent, then I can assure you, there are alot more than Iceland would have and yet there it is, making no attempt to cling to a bigger state because it it scared.  No, instead they have relationships with neighbouring countries, the world around them, just like we would/will.

Fishing, forestry, manufacturing, tourism, whisky, oil, water, green energy technology, to name the first things that come to mind, collectively make a very good reason why we could expect a good future as an independent nation.  Especially when you ally that with the good feeling we command around the world, the respect many of our people are held in across all important fields of human endeavour, and across history. 

What do we have to be negative about, if we become independent?  Nothing. 

I honestly believe we are very lucky to be living in Scotland at this time.  While the rest of this poor, benighted isle can only choose between New Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem, we have the opportunity to choose  a party that can break out of this woeful, electoral cycle.

Excuse me, for tub thumping, this subject excites me just as much as Andys' tennis matches.


Brilliant post Igriev! The worse things become in the UK, the more I believe that Scotland would be better of as an independant country. However, I very much doubt that David Cameron would allow that to happen, if he can possibly prevent it! I remember him saying at one point, that he 'would fight tooth and nail' to keep Scotland from independance! For that reason,  if we ever do get a referendum, I doubt whether we'll get the other question on the ballot paper. It'll be a straight 'yes' or 'no'! Unfortunately, I wouldn't get a vote as I live in England, but if I did, I'd certainly be voting for an independant Scotland!
IP Logged
Aileen
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,992

Gender: Female
Location: Edinburgh


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #139 on: September 26, 2012, 04:37 PM »
Reply

Brilliant post Igriev! The worse things become in the UK, the more I believe that Scotland would be better of as an independant country. However, I very much doubt that David Cameron would allow that to happen, if he can possibly prevent it! I remember him saying at one point, that he 'would fight tooth and nail' to keep Scotland from independance! For that reason,  if we ever do get a referendum, I doubt whether we'll get the other question on the ballot paper. It'll be a straight 'yes' or 'no'! Unfortunately, I wouldn't get a vote as I live in England, but if I did, I'd certainly be voting for an independant Scotland!
Cameron is actually playing right into Salmond's hands with his interference.  The more we get about this "tooth and nail" stuff the more it's likely to drive undecided voters towards the idea of independence, especially given how much the Tories are detested in Scotland.  He'd do well to keep his nose out of Scotland's business.  Mind you if anyone can stand up to him it's Salmond.  He's head and shoulders above him as a politician.
IP Logged
Alis
ATP Level
***
Posts: 2,855

Gender: Female
Location: Southern Hebrides

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #140 on: September 26, 2012, 08:43 PM »
Reply

Methinks he doth protest too much!  I've always thought it would suit Cameron's book for Scotland to be independent - it would certainly make it much easier for the Tories to hold onto power in England.
IP Logged
lgriev10
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 285


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #141 on: September 26, 2012, 09:52 PM »
Reply

I'll excuse your tub thumping Igriev and I like the comparison with Andy's matches.   If we could only work towards gaining enough confidence in ourselves,  as Andy did in his chosen sport, what could we achieve?    I remember the elation when we voted for devolution and how proud I felt.   And to go on and reach independence would be my dream.


I agree with you, it is all about confidence, and holding your nerve, when so many powerful interests  claim 'confidently' to know better, and to have our best interests at heart.  We have 2 years to grow in confidence.  I think we can do it.
IP Logged
lgriev10
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 285


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #142 on: September 26, 2012, 10:00 PM »
Reply

Igriev, whilst I read your comments with interest, I don't share your great enthusiasm for the subject, nor do I really know enough to argue with you.  However you've been about the first person to actually put forward a sensible reason for independence and its possible success.  If I could hear a few more like you then I might just be persuaded to change my mind, but it's a big might.  As for my perceived negativity - maybe that arises out of natural cautiousness because I'm a cautious person, perhaps even more so now because I suspect I've been on this earth considerably longer than you have.

Of course Scotland is lucky to have the SNP as an alternative to the other dead ducks, but I don't see how that necessarily means we need to be independent.  I support the SNP because of their other policies and what they have done for Scotland so far, and am very proud that they have led the field in some areas.  For example, their recent idea to have zero tolerance for drink-driving in under 25s is an excellent one and one which I hope finally gets the approval of the other parties.  I'd be quite happy for Holyrood to have more devolved powers, although just exactly what fiscal autonomy would mean is still unclear.  If there's a Devo Max option on that ballot paper then that's the one that, for the moment at least, I intend putting my cross beside.

I know what you mean about devo max, it is tempting and a step forward, at least.  It is good to be able to discuss this topic, here, and I am so glad we can do it without rancour.  I agree with your point  about Cameron sticking his nose in, being helpful to the SNP.  This was just posted by a musician friend of mine, who I think was a Labour voter.

  "OK.....I'll have step forward and admit it. In 2014, I'll be voting for Scottish Independence,not because I'm a Nationalist per se, but another five years of Cameron will finish the welfare state in this country. It is our cousins down south who have voted for these poisonous right wing governments.......as a voting populace they outnumber us by a factor of 10/1. If people in this country don't take this opportunity.....we can hardly Complain if we get five more years of Cameron and his nefarious cronies."

Could we really make as big an arse of it, as the recent government encumbents?
IP Logged
lgriev10
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 285


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #143 on: September 26, 2012, 10:25 PM »
Reply

Brilliant post Igriev! The worse things become in the UK, the more I believe that Scotland would be better of as an independant country. However, I very much doubt that David Cameron would allow that to happen, if he can possibly prevent it! I remember him saying at one point, that he 'would fight tooth and nail' to keep Scotland from independance! For that reason,  if we ever do get a referendum, I doubt whether we'll get the other question on the ballot paper. It'll be a straight 'yes' or 'no'! Unfortunately, I wouldn't get a vote as I live in England, but if I did, I'd certainly be voting for an independant Scotland!

Thanks Caz, that's really good to hear.  I don't think Cameron could stop Scottish independence if we do vote for it with a majority. I am hopeful that Europe is too civilised for Cameron to be able to stop change, illegaly.  He is playing a dangerous game, by trying to limit the referendum to one question, because many people may feel galvanised to vote Yes, rather that lose the opportunity to pursue change.  The interesting thing is that Salmond himself says he would be happy with the single question, but feels that it is only fair for the referendum question to reflect what the people of Scotland would like to see on the ballot paper. 

Apparently back in the 80's people in the SNP who wanted outright independence and nothing less, were termed 'fundamentalists'  and those that were happy to get there in the end, were called 'gradualists.'  I am a gradualist, we have 2 years until the vote, I would be happy if that ushered in Devo Max, as I feel it would be another step along the path to independence.  We'll see soon what choices we are offered on the ballot paper, should be interesting.   Oh, Salmond, was a gradualist, too, by the way.
IP Logged
lgriev10
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 285


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #144 on: September 26, 2012, 11:15 PM »
Reply

Very interesting points you make there.

I also came across this:-

Iceland—with its own currency, its own central bank, its own monetary policy, its own decision-making and its own rules—had policy options that euro-zone nations can only fantasize about. Its successes provide a vivid lesson in what euro countries gave up when they joined the monetary union. And, perhaps, a taste of what might be possible should they leave.

Iceland has a significant advantage over stressed euro-zone countries—a currency that could be devalued. That has turned its trade deficit into a surplus and smoothed its recovery.

Its currency devalued by half. That boosted exports, like Mr. Palsson's fish, and trimmed costly imports, like cars. The weakened krona was hard on homeowners who borrowed in foreign currency, but Iceland's judges and policy makers orchestrated mortgage relief. Expensive foreign goods also ignited inflation. Consumer prices have risen 26% since 2008.

I don't think that you'll want the pound to be less than a pound in Scotland, would you?

Apparently the high exchange against the US$ is making things difficult for businesses in NZ.  Perhaps they could be a love and raise it for them?

I know what you mean about the advantages that Iceland have as far as setting their own exchange rate.  Just look at poor Greece, a country I love.  They may well be better walking away from the Euro, rather that submitting to Germanic austerity for the rest of their natural lives!

It does make you think that Scotland, may well be better moving to its own currency eventually, but in the meantime being tied into pound sterling is a reasonable position to take, as too much sudden change, could be unhelpful for everybody.  I'm not saying there should not be change though. 

Talking of high exchange rates, apparently that is one way in which the Germans have profited from the Euro, as it keeps the rate down allowing them to sell more product, globally. 

I hope NZ does alright, but whether the US will help you, I really can't say.  I reckon Barrack would, but I am not so sure about Mit! 
IP Logged
Aileen
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,992

Gender: Female
Location: Edinburgh


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #145 on: September 27, 2012, 12:58 AM »
Reply

I know what you mean about devo max, it is tempting and a step forward, at least.  It is good to be able to discuss this topic, here, and I am so glad we can do it without rancour.  I agree with your point  about Cameron sticking his nose in, being helpful to the SNP.  This was just posted by a musician friend of mine, who I think was a Labour voter.

  "OK.....I'll have step forward and admit it. In 2014, I'll be voting for Scottish Independence,not because I'm a Nationalist per se, but another five years of Cameron will finish the welfare state in this country. It is our cousins down south who have voted for these poisonous right wing governments.......as a voting populace they outnumber us by a factor of 10/1. If people in this country don't take this opportunity.....we can hardly Complain if we get five more years of Cameron and his nefarious cronies."

Could we really make as big an arse of it, as the recent government encumbents?
I hope we can all continue to discuss this without rancour.

Your friend's comment is an interesting one, and one I wouldn't disagree with.  My reservation though is that Scotland would need a firm hand at the helm, at least for 20/30 years, if it became independent because, inevitably, there would be teething problems.  Alex Salmond is a politician many people, myself included, have great admiration for, but when he retires/dies, who is going to take over?  Certainly nobody I can think of at the present time, and Salmond would be a hard act to follow anyway.  Scotland could, in effect, end up in a state of chaos.  On the other hand you could ask, when will things improve at Westminster?  Certainly not in the foreseeable future.  Tories apart, the present Labour party doesn't inspire confidence and neither do the LibDems (I'll be surprised if the Coalition government survives until 2016).

Also what would happen to the other political parties at Holyrood since the terms Tory, Labour and LibDem would cease to have any relevance?  New parties would have to be created since opposition is an essential part of government, otherwise you end up with a dictatorship.
IP Logged
Bevc
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,040

Gender: Female
Location: Cambridge - New Zealand


I'd give up chocolate but I'm no quitter!

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #146 on: September 27, 2012, 10:04 AM »
Reply

Thought I'd read somewhere that Salmond had given up on the 2nd question search yes, here we go

ALEX Salmond has given the strongest indication yet that he has given up on the prospect of a second question appearing on the independence referendum ballot paper.

The First Minister conceded the UK government “won’t offer” a third option on more powers for Holyrood – but said that Scots who would have backed “devo-max” could now be instrumental in

delivering a “yes” vote for independence.

Meanwhile, the Holyrood and Westminster governments ordered officials to start work on Monday, on a “package” to hold the historic vote after the two sides reached an “advanced stage” in talks about the format of the referendum. Opponents accused Mr Salmond of

“admitting defeat”, following claims he favoured the third option to secure some degree of change in Scotland’s constitutional status if voters rejected outright independence.

The SNP leader, who is travelling to the US today ahead of this weekend’s Ryder Cup golf tournament, said in an interview with the LA Times newspaper that independence is “regularly” more popular among Scots than the status quo or the devo-max option, also known as full fiscal autonomy.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scottish-independence-alex-salmond-signals-deal-on-second-question-1-2543971
IP Logged
Bevc
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,040

Gender: Female
Location: Cambridge - New Zealand


I'd give up chocolate but I'm no quitter!

Re: Scottish politics « Reply #147 on: September 27, 2012, 10:15 AM »
Reply

I know what you mean about the advantages that Iceland have as far as setting their own exchange rate.  Just look at poor Greece, a country I love.  They may well be better walking away from the Euro, rather that submitting to Germanic austerity for the rest of their natural lives!

It does make you think that Scotland, may well be better moving to its own currency eventually, but in the meantime being tied into pound sterling is a reasonable position to take, as too much sudden change, could be unhelpful for everybody.  I'm not saying there should not be change though.  

Talking of high exchange rates, apparently that is one way in which the Germans have profited from the Euro, as it keeps the rate down allowing them to sell more product, globally.  

I hope NZ does alright, but whether the US will help you, I really can't say.  I reckon Barrack would, but I am not so sure about Mit!  

The Greek 'problem' raises its head again and they are up in arms in Spain.  I've never been one to support a single currency and remember when the Irish joined the euro.  We were on holiday at the time, along with several Irish families.  They were disgusted at the 'deal' they were getting.  It never seemed a fair scheme to me, though I'm not quite sure of the ins and outs of it all, there appear to be some countries benefiting from it whilst others fail.  
IP Logged
Aileen
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 36,992

Gender: Female
Location: Edinburgh


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #148 on: September 28, 2012, 01:41 AM »
Reply

Thought I'd read somewhere that Salmond had given up on the 2nd question search yes, here we go

ALEX Salmond has given the strongest indication yet that he has given up on the prospect of a second question appearing on the independence referendum ballot paper.

The First Minister conceded the UK government “won’t offer” a third option on more powers for Holyrood – but said that Scots who would have backed “devo-max” could now be instrumental in

delivering a “yes” vote for independence.

Meanwhile, the Holyrood and Westminster governments ordered officials to start work on Monday, on a “package” to hold the historic vote after the two sides reached an “advanced stage” in talks about the format of the referendum. Opponents accused Mr Salmond of

“admitting defeat”, following claims he favoured the third option to secure some degree of change in Scotland’s constitutional status if voters rejected outright independence.

The SNP leader, who is travelling to the US today ahead of this weekend’s Ryder Cup golf tournament, said in an interview with the LA Times newspaper that independence is “regularly” more popular among Scots than the status quo or the devo-max option, also known as full fiscal autonomy.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scottish-independence-alex-salmond-signals-deal-on-second-question-1-2543971
Salmond didn't give up - he was forced to drop the question - but it strikes me that in doing so Cameron may have well and truly shot himself in the foot, something it seems the SNP would agree with -

"But many senior Nationalists believe that a second question would only split the vote for change, while a straight “yes” or “no” will maximise support for full independence."

This is what was concerning me - that without that option the vote could well go in favour of independence, if the electorate are sufficiently desperate for change.  However, as was also pointed out in that article, Salmond has yet to provide us with clear answers to a lot of questions, and until we get them he might as well not bother holding his referendum.  Taking a bold step forward is one thing, but taking it blindfold is quite another.

And 16 and 17 year olds are apparently to be allowed to vote?  So at that age they're capable of making an informed opinion on what would be an irrevocable decision about not only their country's future but their own as well?  I said earlier that this issue is so serious that I reckon the voting age should be increased to 21 - something that quite a few people I've spoken to would go along with.


The Greek 'problem' raises its head again and they are up in arms in Spain.  I've never been one to support a single currency and remember when the Irish joined the euro.  We were on holiday at the time, along with several Irish families.  They were disgusted at the 'deal' they were getting.  It never seemed a fair scheme to me, though I'm not quite sure of the ins and outs of it all, there appear to be some countries benefiting from it whilst others fail.
 
One of the few sensible things Britain has done recently is to keep out of the Eurozone, although unfortunately that doesn't mean that we won't be totally unaffected by what's been happening there.
IP Logged
tennis_girl
World No 1
*******
Posts: 10,789

Gender: Female


Re: Scottish politics « Reply #149 on: September 28, 2012, 10:15 AM »
Reply

In that case, I vote that anyone over a certain age shouldn't be allowed to vote - because they probably won't live to see the full results and all that jazz, so why should they have a vote? Rolling Eyes
IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 ... 256 Go Up Reply 
« previous next »