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Poll
Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

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Scottish politics

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Caz
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #795 on: February 11, 2013, 04:18 PM »
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The way the this referendum is going it looks as though they think the Scots contribute nothing to the UK. It makes me angry to think that is the way we are perceived. Like last weeks Question time about radioactive waste originally it was supposed to be going to Cumbria but it was found that the rocks would leak radiation.So some smart arse in the audience shouted out send it to Scotland I am beginning to think people think that is what we deserve. It will always be so and I cannot see it changing, if we do not speak up for ourselves we will always be at a disadvantage. The UK government is trying so hard to scare people to accepting the way things are. It is up to Scots to try and change things for the better.

 


 .
I heard that on Question time too LB and it sickened me so much that the rest of the audience and the panel laughed, that I would happily have voted 'Yes' right there and then!
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tennis_girl
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #796 on: February 11, 2013, 04:55 PM »
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If you're referring to the SNP, then I agree with you, but the trouble is that they only seem to hear what they want to hear.  I want a federal system because it's the only thing that makes sense here.  Scotland can then enjoy a good deal of indpendence away from London's influcence whilst still being part of the UK.  It works in other countries such as the US and Australia, so why not in the UK?  Of course I realise that, even if the SNP were to change their minds, Westminster would have to agree to this too, and that is something they obviously do not want to do.  However, my opinion still is (and I could be proved wrong) that, unless and until the SNP see the light, their idea of a totally independent Scotland is extremely unlikely to come to fruition.

I was less than happy though the other day when it was reported that a certain T Blair has committed himself to helping the No campaign, to which news Kenneth Gibson SNP MSP responded: “Tony Blair’s cack-handed intervention at Westminster that he will ‘play a part’ in the ‘No’ campaign is an early Christmas present for ‘Yes’".  Whilst I don't believe that to be entirely true, that man's reputation is so sullied he really should keep his nose out of British politics altogether.  If he plays a big role here, then he and David Cameron between them could well push many undecided voters into voting Yes.

It works in the USA at least, because states are given power in the Constitution which are supposed to make sure the federal government doesn't enroach.
The UK doesn't have a written Constitution; all of Scotland's power has come from Acts of Parliament. Theoretically, that could always be taken away...by Westminster. I think you'd need to create a written Constitution (don't really think London would agree to that).

Also, I'd argue that the federal system is really flailing here in the USA. The federal government, through funding and effectively the fact that the federal government has been able to ensure that no state laws contradict federal laws, really has the power here.
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #797 on: February 12, 2013, 01:51 AM »
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The way the this referendum is going it looks as though they think the Scots contribute nothing to the UK. It makes me angry to think that is the way we are perceived. Like last weeks Question time about radioactive waste originally it was supposed to be going to Cumbria but it was found that the rocks would leak radiation.So some smart arse in the audience shouted out send it to Scotland I am beginning to think people think that is what we deserve. It will always be so and I cannot see it changing, if we do not speak up for ourselves we will always be at a disadvantage. The UK government is trying so hard to scare people to accepting the way things are. It is up to Scots to try and change things for the better.
I heard that on Question time too LB and it sickened me so much that the rest of the audience and the panel laughed, that I would happily have voted 'Yes' right there and then!
That QT was a humdinger!  Maybe I missed something, but I thought that comment was meant to be sarcastic and that the audience, which I assumed was mainly Scottish, saw it that way.  However the Muslim SNP gentleman seriously annoyed me by refusing to answer the questions and simply waffled his way round them despite Dimbleby's efforts to get him to do so - not exactly the way to go about convincing people that they should vote 'Yes'.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #798 on: February 12, 2013, 02:31 AM »
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I missed that QT as I now rarely get past the first 10 minutes since politicians irritate me so much ( I think I'll exempt Shirley Williams ) but the upside of that is I don't need a  politician to convince me to vote yes - I've convinced myself.    I'm not looking for Nirvana  but I'm sure it is the right way to go.
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #799 on: February 12, 2013, 03:08 AM »
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You've been able to make up your own mind on this issue, but there are an awful lot of people who do need to be convinced that it's the right way forward.  More transparency and giving people straightforward answers to their concerns by the SNP wouldn't go amiss for a start.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #800 on: February 12, 2013, 03:40 AM »
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I missed that QT as I now rarely get past the first 10 minutes since politicians irritate me so much ( I think I'll exempt Shirley Williams ) but the upside of that is I don't need a  politician to convince me to vote yes - I've convinced myself.    I'm not looking for Nirvana  but I'm sure it is the right way to go.

Are you saying, ILA, that irrespective of what would be negotiated on independence, that you will support it? Think

You've been able to make up your own mind on this issue, but there are an awful lot of people who do need to be convinced that it's the right way forward.  More transparency and giving people straightforward answers to their concerns by the SNP wouldn't go amiss for a start.

There still is a lot of conflicting information out there with both sides having their own renowned experts.

I'm still confused by the number of 'British' things that an independent Scotland wants to keep but not want to be part of Britain. confused
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #801 on: February 12, 2013, 11:00 AM »
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Are you saying, ILA, that irrespective of what would be negotiated on independence, that you will support it? Think

There still is a lot of conflicting information out there with both sides having their own renowned experts.

I'm still confused by the number of 'British' things that an independent Scotland wants to keep but not want to be part of Britain. confused

Yes Aileen I will vote for independence.   Even negotiated with bits I don't want - e.g. the monarchy which I definitely do not want. No doubt there will be other decisions which will not suit me but the status quo doesn't appeal to me either which makes my decision easier.    I've wanted this for quite a long time now and I think being dragged into the Iraq war really made my decision irreversible.

And Bev we are geographically part of Britain and I'm quite happy with that and why shouldn't we keep bits of things we have contributed to over the years.    I wasn't around when Eire became independent but they kept the pound - I wonder if there was a fuss about it at the time?     As for the EU they may get us in exchange for the rest of the UK who may vote themselves out.   

I'm hoping for a country which can say to its parliamentarians the sovereignty rests with the people and comes down to you from the people.     

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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #802 on: February 12, 2013, 12:25 PM »
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I agree Iluvandy thing could not get much worse at least if we made mistakes it would be our mistakes. At present we have to put up with Westminister we are treated like an appendage to England. I have to laugh when Westminister talk about the North of England being Manchester and York what hope in hell do we have. I still maintain that too much money and power is centered in London and the South East of England. Yesterday day the UK government had the arrogance to tell the Scottish Government what it would have to apply for every thing that would make Scotland an independent state. It is up to Scots to grab the moment and get on with building an independent country and stop looking and get on with it. Scotland has contributed to what Bevc calls British we have paid our fair share of taxes and so forth. Obviously the Scottish government would have to discuss its share of assets and debts but to say this is not possible is rubbish.When it comes to cuts Scotland has had more than its fare share. For example many army regiments have been merged moving them out of Scotland and causing a lot of people to loose their employment. The present government looks as though this will continue as they make more cuts. I hope the Scottish people are brave and vote for independence perhaps then the rest of UK will have to find somewhere new to dump their radioactive waste and find a place to keep their nuclear subs.Cameron keeps saying we will not be involved in other people's war I do not believe it for a moment we can only wait and see.I too will vote for independence and I hope others will to. The UK government are trying their best to scare the people of Scotland every day in the papers we are bombarded by articles about how good the status quo is why are they so frightened.?

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boogers
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #803 on: February 12, 2013, 01:39 PM »
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Ah, how I missed this thread and the never ending stream of half-truths, lies and bigotry.

I still maintain that too much money and power is centered in London and the South East of England.

London and the South East generate more than 30% of the income to the public purse; they are also by far the most populated parts of the UK. I'm not sure how you think this can be altered, except by forcibly relocating people and businesses to other parts of the country.

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When it comes to cuts Scotland has had more than its fare share.

As has already been demonstrated earlier, this is an outright lie.  

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I hope the Scottish people are brave and vote for independence perhaps then the rest of UK will have to find somewhere new to dump their radioactive waste and find a place to keep their nuclear subs.

Scotland has four nuclear power facilities, two of which are still generating power. An independent Scotland will have to find somewhere to store radioactive waste, as well as presumably pay for these facilities to be decommissioned when the time comes.

Suitable locations are driven by simple geology.

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The UK government are trying their best to scare the people of Scotland every day in the papers we are bombarded by articles about how good the status quo is why are they so frightened.?

I don't think they are "frightened" as such, merely countering the spin from the pro-independence movement.

Interestingly, only 23% of people in Scotland now support independence - a fall of 9% since last year. Source.

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and find a place to keep their nuclear subs.

Weren't you just complaining about the wind-down of Scottish regiments?
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #804 on: February 12, 2013, 01:42 PM »
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You have your opinion and I have mine and Ill leave it that.
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #805 on: February 12, 2013, 07:40 PM »
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Ah, how I missed this thread and the never ending stream of half-truths, lies and bigotry.
Which are continuing to come from the SNP, yet they apparently can't, or perhaps don't want to, understand why the number of those who were initially in favour of independence have changed their minds.  Fair enough, there are people who have made up their own minds for reasons best known to themselves, but clearly there are many who are no longer fooled by the often outrageous spin coming from the 'Yes' lobby.


You have your opinion and I have mine and Ill leave it that.
Is it because that, like so many pro-independence followers, you simply can't put forward a rational argument to support your views?
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Bevc
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #806 on: February 12, 2013, 08:04 PM »
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why shouldn't we keep bits of things we have contributed to over the years.
 

Maybe that's the thinking of Westminster too Think
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Littlebuddha
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #807 on: February 12, 2013, 08:06 PM »
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Do not kid your self Aileen all you have to do is read the papers like the times to see the No lobby in action. A lot of half truths. But it is up to you what you believe. We cant all be wrong but time will tell. The No lobby put out some propaghanda the other day which was promptly denied by Crawford Beveridge who had helped write the report. So you pay your money and take your pick. At least boogers wont have a vote what bliss.I am not a bigot but if you disagree with boogers who apparently thinks he is the font of all knowledge you are. .
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #808 on: February 12, 2013, 09:57 PM »
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Which are continuing to come from the SNP, yet they apparently can't, or perhaps don't want to, understand why the number of those who were initially in favour of independence have changed their minds.  Fair enough, there are people who have made up their own minds for reasons best known to themselves, but clearly there are many who are no longer fooled by the often outrageous spin coming from the 'Yes' lobby.

Indeed.

It's quite easy for the "Yes" lobby - just paint a lovely picture of a utopian society freed from the repressive control of Westminster. Anyone pointing out flaws in that viewpoint can be dismissed as negative establishment cronies.

I think that most rational participants of this debate agree that a federal system of some sort is probably the optimal solution.

Unfortunately we've now got a simple Yes/No choice; whether this is Westminster calling the SNP's bluff, or vice versa, is a matter of opinion.

The best possible outcome for all involved is a "no" vote, followed by continued devolution of policy areas and the establishment of an English assembly to match the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish establishments.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #809 on: February 12, 2013, 09:58 PM »
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Maybe that's the thinking of Westminster too Think

I doubt if I would ever find myself on the same wavelength as Westminster Bev.  I said BITS of things - not the whole package.
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