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Question:  If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

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Scottish politics

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Connor
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #810 on: February 12, 2013, 10:03 PM »
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As a teenager I think it is important that the Scottish government think this through properly. We don't want a riot on our hands, but neither do we want the wrong decision to be made.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #811 on: February 12, 2013, 10:17 PM »
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I haven't missed this thread at all Boogers.    Just one comment though.    I cannot honestly see you and Aileen as rational participants.     Maybe you intended that post for another thread.   Joke of the Day would be a suitable home.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #812 on: February 12, 2013, 10:27 PM »
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boogers, this the one (and perhaps the only) time that I 100% agree with you. A vote for independence would be a disaster for UK and moreover for Scotland.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #813 on: February 12, 2013, 10:38 PM »
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I cannot honestly see you and Aileen as rational participants.

Can't possibly comment on my own rationality... but Aileen? A Scot (I think), living in Scotland discounting separatism for a range of clearly explained reasons, but in favour of a federal solution? One of the most rational voices to participate in this thread.

You might not agree with her opinion, but that doesn't make it irrational.

Now basing your opinion on an event that occurred a decade ago, instigated by a party that was humbled at the last general election... that borders on irrationality.
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Iluvandy
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #814 on: February 12, 2013, 11:20 PM »
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Can't possibly comment on my own rationality... but Aileen? A Scot (I think), living in Scotland discounting separatism for a range of clearly explained reasons, but in favour of a federal solution? One of the most rational voices to participate in this thread.

You might not agree with her opinion, but that doesn't make it irrational.

Now basing your opinion on an event that occurred a decade ago, instigated by a party that was humbled at the last general election... that borders on irrationality.

I'm not getting into an argument, boogers.    I will just say I base my opinion of your irrationality (and Aileen's) on the dismissive tone of your posts.    I didn't say I based my opinion on the Iraq war.    I said I had been in favour of independence for years but being dragged into the Iraq war had made my decision irreversible.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #815 on: February 13, 2013, 12:37 AM »
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I doubt if I would ever find myself on the same wavelength as Westminster Bev.  I said BITS of things - not the whole package.

Very Happy

I'm sure that many of the British public feel the same too - I know that I did when I was in the UK.
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Aileen
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #816 on: February 13, 2013, 05:14 AM »
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It's quite easy for the "Yes" lobby - just paint a lovely picture of a utopian society freed from the repressive control of Westminster. Anyone pointing out flaws in that viewpoint can be dismissed as negative establishment cronies.

I think that most rational participants of this debate agree that a federal system of some sort is probably the optimal solution.

Unfortunately we've now got a simple Yes/No choice; whether this is Westminster calling the SNP's bluff, or vice versa, is a matter of opinion.

The best possible outcome for all involved is a "no" vote, followed by continued devolution of policy areas and the establishment of an English assembly to match the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish establishments.
I agree 100% with what you say.  I don't care to speculate about what lay behind the straight Yes/No choice, but Alex Salmond is a very astute, devious politician who is perfectly capable of running rings round David Cameron to suit his own agenda.

And yes, I am a Scot, and proud of it, which is why I fear for my country's future as an independent nation, particularly one under the control of an SNP government,


I'm not getting into an argument, boogers.    I will just say I base my opinion of your irrationality (and Aileen's) on the dismissive tone of your posts.    I didn't say I based my opinion on the Iraq war.    I said I had been in favour of independence for years but being dragged into the Iraq war had made my decision irreversible.
I was in favour of independence at one point in my life - but that was before Devolution became a reality.  Any notions that might still have lingered were well and truly knocked on the head when the SNP government came into power.  They have done a lot for Scotland, and I voted for them at the last two elections for that reason, but I do not wish to see them running, or trying to run, this country single-handedly.  Also, having thought a lot of things through, I do not believe that independence is the way forward either for Scotland or the rest of the UK.

As for Iraq - I fail to see what that has to do with independence.  At the time of the invasion, and the ensuing war, a Labour/LibDem Coaltion was in power in Holyrood under FM Jack McConnell, who was only too willing to kowtow to Tony Blair.  I'm well aware that the SNP, and Alex Salmond in particular, voiced strong condemnation of the invasion (as did many Scots, myself included) but it's very easy for a party to take the moral high ground when they're in opposition.  Also I'm sure that Salmond will want an independent Scotland to be an ally of the US for economical reasons if nothing else and, that being the case, he would find it difficult to wriggle out of offering help if specifically asked for it whether he was in favour or not.

In addition the SNP has ditched its anti-NATO stance and so an independent Scotland would become a member, and that too would certainly influence it's decision if its NATO allies became involved in a conflict.

Finally, the SNP continues to support the seemingly endless, expensive (both in regard to money and lives) and fultile war in Afghanistan which itself primarily started off as an invasion of that country.
[ Last edit by Aileen February 13, 2013, 05:20 AM ] IP Logged
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #817 on: February 13, 2013, 07:46 AM »
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This topic is very interesting as I feel that it is too late for the United Kingdom to break up.  We have been one nation for far too long.  There are so many problems being thrown up by the debate here.  It would take too long to go into them.  I do wonder if everyone in Scotland actually understands the different problems independence would bring.  I do not live in Scotland but have scottish ancestry as does my husband and would be very sad to see them become independent.  I have worked for the militsry for some years and the soldiers are not interested in separating the Scottish regiments from the rest.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #818 on: February 13, 2013, 04:09 PM »
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This topic is very interesting as I feel that it is too late for the United Kingdom to break up.  We have been one nation for far too long.  There are so many problems being thrown up by the debate here.  It would take too long to go into them.  I do wonder if everyone in Scotland actually understands the different problems independence would bring.  I do not live in Scotland but have scottish ancestry as does my husband and would be very sad to see them become independent.  I have worked for the militsry for some years and the soldiers are not interested in separating the Scottish regiments from the rest.
   Independence is one of these slippery words that can cover a  range of concepts. Of course we can't physically detach Scotland from the rest of the UK and obliterate centuries of history. But we must change with the times so I myself support what i see as an ongoing evolution of the political status of Scotland within a European context.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #819 on: February 13, 2013, 10:18 PM »
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I haven't missed this thread at all Boogers.    Just one comment though.    I cannot honestly see you and Aileen as rational participants.     Maybe you intended that post for another thread.   Joke of the Day would be a suitable home.

Phil is actually backing up most of his assertions with solid fact and evidence, unlike the vast majority of people in this thread. Some of whom prefer romantic ideology and bluster.

I think the SNP are going to have to produce a perfect campaign to even make it a closely fought referendum.

Do not kid your self Aileen all you have to do is read the papers like the times to see the No lobby in action. A lot of half truths. But it is up to you what you believe. We cant all be wrong but time will tell. The No lobby put out some propaghanda the other day which was promptly denied by Crawford Beveridge who had helped write the report. So you pay your money and take your pick. At least boogers wont have a vote what bliss.I am not a bigot but if you disagree with boogers who apparently thinks he is the font of all knowledge you are. .

I'm sorry but the more and more I read your posts, you come across as somewhat Anglophobic.
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #820 on: February 13, 2013, 10:21 PM »
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Phil is actually backing up most of his assertions with solid fact and evidence, unlike the vast majority of people in this thread. Some of whom prefer romantic ideology and bluster.

I'm sorry but the more and more I read your posts, you come across as somewhat Anglophobic.
Evidence, please!
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #821 on: February 13, 2013, 10:22 PM »
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Evidence, please!

Oh, are you in the mood for a debate this time?
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Elly
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #822 on: February 13, 2013, 10:23 PM »
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Oh, are you in the mood for a debate this time?
I'm asking you to back up your assertion of Anglophobia.  Can't just make base statements on here without evidence - you should know that by now!
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Sir Panda
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #823 on: February 13, 2013, 10:25 PM »
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I'm asking you to back up your assertion of Anglophobia.

Righty ho, Glenn Close, I was planning an 11PM bedtime, but just for you, I'll go digging.
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Elly
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Re: Scottish politics « Reply #824 on: February 13, 2013, 10:26 PM »
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Righty ho, Glenn Close, I was planning an 11PM bedtime, but just for you, I'll go digging.
You just can't help yourself, can you?  I'm not understanding the 'Glenn Close' reference - would you care to explain?
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