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Who created us?

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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #150 on: May 18, 2008, 12:11 PM »
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As for my tuppance worth, organised religions are absolute nonsense. I think the man studying social studies could've done a lot better a job showing how religion is almost certainly a control mechanism for the masses, or a safety net against personal fear. (Look at how modern politics and the mass media attempt to contol the masses and you'll see they match up with how religion works.)

Religion and faith are psychological phenomenons, which all groups of humans in any period of history have 'suffered' from. The continuing existence of such phenomenoms, I personally believe, demonstrates a weakness/limitation of the human mind.


I think the question of whether or not there is a 'god' has nothing to do with religion/faith, as they are man-made constructions and as such have absolutely no basis in the 'reality' of the situation (imo).

Personally I think the word 'god' belongs to such human constructions so I prefer to think of the possibilty of a 'Creator', whose potential existence and nature is a scientific debate in my mind (based on logic/reason/evidence/etc). There's every likelyhood of a creator. Assuming we accept scientific theory back to the Big Bang - something which was put quite well on a previous page is that we dont know what 'environment' came before it.

When it comes down to it, if you dismiss the idea of an 'intelligent' creator somewhere along the line, you may well be dismissing the idea that we have free will. That instead we are all just miniscule particles running through a monumental scientific equation. Current science is nowhere near 'solid' enough to lean on for the ultimate answer to anything to be honest. Quite possibily we will look as backward to future generations as past generations look to us.

Lack of decently devloped science to turn to is the reason 'fairytale' religion is still going strong, its still 'filling in the gaps' as Clydey said when he was refering to its role in past times - it still has that role now.

Can we ever become an enlightened species who doesnt need constructed religion to help us deal with the nature of existence, deal with our fears and give us morales? Id love to tell you but my gf just made waffles....  w00t


I wasn't trying to argue against every point of religion.  Rather than look at religion's purpose, I was looking at whether belief in a deity was plausible.  I could obviously going into the cultural aspect of it (I'm studying social sciences, after all).  I mentioned them a little.

I'd also disagree with what you said about science and free will.  I'm too tired to construct a long argument here, so for the time being I'll just make it known that I disagree.

Other than that, good post.
[ Last edit by Clydey May 18, 2008, 12:30 PM ] IP Logged
Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #151 on: May 18, 2008, 12:14 PM »
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Hi there Clydey, slept well? I had to get up 8:30 my time, 6:30 British time. I am so smacked out...
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #152 on: May 18, 2008, 12:15 PM »
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I don't think she meant atheism is cynical, more that dana's views about religion were cynical.


I'd say Dana's views are perfectly valid.  If belief isn't based on evidence, there are obviously other reasons why people believe.

Adopting the beliefs of their parents is the most common way.  Children are indoctrinated into a specific religion from a very early age.  Shaking those beliefs is rare.  That people see the existence of a deity as being comforting in no way makes it actually true.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #153 on: May 18, 2008, 12:16 PM »
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Hi there Clydey, slept well? I had to get up 8:30 my time, 6:30 British time. I am so smacked out...


I just woke up actually.  I have a psychology exam tomorrow and I haven't studied yet.  I guess I'll be pulling an all-nighter again tonight.
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eira_arian
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #154 on: May 18, 2008, 12:17 PM »
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I didn't say they weren't valid, I said they were cynical and narrow. Whether it's true or not means bugger all. I don't see why we should condemn people who believe in religion just because we don't personally belief or on the basis that a tiny tiny percent of them use their religion as justification for committing atrocities.
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Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #155 on: May 18, 2008, 12:21 PM »
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Good luck! I'm going to try and find some time today to get a good look through those links you posted up. Thanks again for them...
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #156 on: May 18, 2008, 12:24 PM »
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I didn't say they weren't valid, I said they were cynical and narrow. Whether it's true or not means bugger all. I don't see why we should condemn people who believe in religion just because we don't personally belief or on the basis that a tiny tiny percent of them use their religion as justification for committing atrocities.


Ok, I will again illustrate my point.  Take the following statement, for example.

I believe in pink unicorns that can fly.

I'm sure you think such a belief is ridiculous.  Are you being narrow-minded by thinking such beliefs are absurd?

By the way, it is not a small minority.  The Arab nations adhere to the word of the qu'ran, without question.  That is why there are suicide bombers.  That is why honour killings occur.  That is why women are treated like 3rd class citizens.

Have you read the Old Testament (and some of the New Testament)?  Go and read Leviticus and then tell me religion is benign.

I'm sure you
[ Last edit by Clydey May 18, 2008, 12:28 PM ] IP Logged
Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #157 on: May 18, 2008, 12:25 PM »
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Good luck! I'm going to try and find some time today to get a good look through those links you posted up. Thanks again for them...


No worries.  Enjoy.
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eira_arian
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #158 on: May 18, 2008, 12:31 PM »
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Ok, I will again illustrate my point.  take the following statement, for example.

I believe in pink unicorns that can fly.

I'm sure you think such a belief is ridiculous.  Are you being narrow-minded by thinking such beliefs are absurd?

By the way, it is not a small minority.  The Arab nations adhere to the word of the qu'ran, without question.  That is why there are suicide bombers.  That is why honour killings occur.  That is why women are treated like 3rd class citizens.

Have you read the Old Testament (and some of the New Testament)?  Go and read Leviticus and then tell me religion is benign.

I'm sure you


You're not listening to me. The point at issue in my dispute with Dana is her inability to see that the fact that some people believe in a religion is not a bad thing. That is what I think is narrow. Religion is not universally bad, nor is it universally good. The practical issue of whether it's true or not was not really on the table.
I've never said I think all religion is benign, in fact I'm fairly sure I've kept most of my personal opinions on religion to myself - so don't put things onto me in order to boost your own intelligence.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #159 on: May 18, 2008, 12:44 PM »
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You're not listening to me. The point at issue in my dispute with Dana is her inability to see that the fact that some people believe in a religion is not a bad thing. That is what I think is narrow. Religion is not universally bad, nor is it universally good. The practical issue of whether it's true or not was not really on the table.
I've never said I think all religion is benign, in fact I'm fairly sure I've kept most of my personal opinions on religion to myself - so don't put things onto me in order to boost your own intelligence.


When did she say that religious people are universally bad?  By all means provide a quote because I certainly can't find it.

What she did say was that their reasons for believing are not valid, and that believing in something because we find it comforting does not make it true.  
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AL1874
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #160 on: May 18, 2008, 01:17 PM »
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Ok, I will again illustrate my point.  Take the following statement, for example.
I believe in pink unicorns that can fly.
I'm sure you think such a belief is ridiculous.  Are you being narrow-minded by thinking such beliefs are absurd?
By the way, it is not a small minority.  The Arab nations adhere to the word of the qu'ran, without question.  That is why there are suicide bombers.  That is why honour killings occur.  That is why women are treated like 3rd class citizens.
Have you read the Old Testament (and some of the New Testament)?  Go and read Leviticus and then tell me religion is benign.
I'm sure you


He has concentrated on the extreme aspects of religion to try and show that it is all bad.

Yes we can all show contradictions in religious texts to make the point that you are trying to enforce, prime example "an eye for an eye" and "turning the other cheek".

But it is how the individual incorporates his faith into his own life that is important.

For every suicide bomber and honor killing there will be millions of fellow Muslims and their religious leaders who find this interpretation go against the teachings of Islaam. But it suits his argument to highlight this aspect so the silent majority of peaceful law abiding are ignored.  

At best it appears to be uninformed and at worst racist.

Do you now write for the daily mail by any chance?
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #161 on: May 18, 2008, 01:37 PM »
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He has concentrated on the extreme aspects of religion to try and show that it is all bad.

Yes we can all show contradictions in religious texts to make the point that you are trying to enforce, prime example "an eye for an eye" and "turning the other cheek".

But it is how the individual incorporates his faith into his own life that is important.

For every suicide bomber and honor killing there will be millions of fellow Muslims and their religious leaders who find this interpretation go against the teachings of Islaam. But it suits his argument to highlight this aspect so the silent majority of peaceful law abiding are ignored.  

At best it appears to be uninformed and at worst racist.

Do you now write for the daily mail by any chance?


You think I've highlighted the extreme aspects of Islam?  I assure you, I haven't.  Have you heard of Sharia Law, which is prevalent in Arab nations?  I'll give you a little taste, in the hope that it will cure your willful ignorance of the subject.

Honour killings are lawful.  In other words, a father can legally kill his daughter for bringing shame on the family by, gasp, talking to a Christian.

Theft is punishable by amputation of the hands or the feet.

Adultery is punishable by stoning the culprits to death.

Husbands have the right to beat their wives.

Those who no longer wish to be Muslims are, under law, to be put to death.

The above are but a few of points of Sharia Law, so no I'm not highlighting the extreme aspects of religion.  Moderate Muslims are in the minority, which includes the majority of British Muslims.  These acts are not condemned.  They are celebrated.  The family of a martyr is compensated.  It is, in fact, the fringe who condemn such acts.

Also, Islam is not a race.  It is a religion and attacking it is not racist.  My criticism applies equally to all Muslims, whether they be white, black or red.  Go ahead and try and refute what I've said.  Once you've failed, by all means come back and apologise for not only calling me a potential racist, but for completely misrepresenting how prevalent the dangerous aspects of religion are.  
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AL1874
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #162 on: May 18, 2008, 02:53 PM »
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Sharia law is implemented to varying degrees depending on the country involved and many are more liberal in there interpretations and enforcement, for Instance implementation of the alcohol laws.

I have a friend from Scotland who whilst working in Syria converted to Islam and got married. On this subject he said it is there but it is very rarely implemented and the level of punishment lesser than the maximum shown, or his wife would have been prosecuted for speaking to him in the first place.

He has never experienced anti-west / Israeli incitement or calls to rise up from his mosque or community but you portray the majority as wife beating bombers.

Not every Islamic country rigorously enforces Sharia law, He must be one of the lucky minority.

Edited for a typo
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #163 on: May 18, 2008, 03:01 PM »
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Sharia law is implemented to varying degrees depending on the country involved and many are more liberal in there interpretations and enforcement, for Instance implementation of the alcohol laws.

I have a friend from Scotland who whilst working in Syria converted to Islam and got married. On this subject he said it is there but it is very really implemented and the level of punishment lesser than the maximum shown, or his wife would have been prosecuted for speaking to him in the first place.

He has never experienced anti-west / Israeli incitement or calls to rise up from his mosque or community but you portray the majority as wife beating bombers.

Not every Islamic country rigorously enforces Sharia law, He must be one of the lucky minority.



Yes, it is implemented to varying degrees, but the fact that such barbaric laws are implemented at all demonstrates how dangerous the religion is.  What I'm getting at is that those who do adhere to Sharia Law are being true to their faith.  The Qu'ran is quite clear.  Thankfully there are moderates (the vast, vast majority being in the west) who do not agree with those laws.

The point remains, however.  The existence of the religion gives people a tool to justify such barbarism.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #164 on: May 18, 2008, 03:04 PM »
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Sharia law is implemented to varying degrees depending on the country involved and many are more liberal in there interpretations and enforcement, for Instance implementation of the alcohol laws.

I have a friend from Scotland who whilst working in Syria converted to Islam and got married. On this subject he said it is there but it is very rarely implemented and the level of punishment lesser than the maximum shown, or his wife would have been prosecuted for speaking to him in the first place.

He has never experienced anti-west / Israeli incitement or calls to rise up from his mosque or community but you portray the majority as wife beating bombers.

Not every Islamic country rigorously enforces Sharia law, He must be one of the lucky minority.

Edited for a typo



By the way, she would not have been prosecuted.  It is up to the family (male members) whether to commit an honour killing.  What the law does is allow this to take place (it is extremely common, and even occurs regularly in Britain).  
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