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Who created us?

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Mark
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #30 on: May 17, 2008, 06:11 PM »
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Can they co-exist?  Not really.  If you stipulate that something had to create the big bang, then it follows that something must have created the entity that caused the big bang.  It would be an infinite regression. 
Essentially it's an infinite regression for both so that doesn't really matter.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #31 on: May 17, 2008, 06:12 PM »
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Aren't you being a little immature? That's obviously what she meant, it hardly needed to be said like that.


It honestly wasn't intended to be immature.  It's a crucial distinction, as saying the earth is round is the same as saying it is flat.

It genuinely wasn't intended to be snippy.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #32 on: May 17, 2008, 06:15 PM »
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But surely it's an infinite regression for both.


No, it's not.  I'm not stipulating that an entity had to create the big bang.  In fact, it's a known fact that the big bang was not created by an entity.  It was as a result of the universe expanding.

My position is that I believe, until evidence says otherwise, that the universe has always been.  It's infinite, in my opinion.
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Mark
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #33 on: May 17, 2008, 06:20 PM »
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Then it's my position that if there is a God, he has always existed... I'm not quite understanding why both beliefs can't co-exist.

Our brains cannot comprehend that something has always been, maybe God gave us that restriction for a reason. Smile
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deedee
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #34 on: May 17, 2008, 06:22 PM »
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I saw a film in class, I believe it was called 'Zeitgeist', and it showed several proofs that the Christian faith is entirely based on the Egyptian astrology and therefore doesn't have any link towards the existence of a real God.

However, I think many of those documentaries search for far-fetched proof, but some points were very well made and not completely made up. Of course, I remain sceptical on any theory.

What I also find annoying is when people who believe in God laugh when somebody says they believe in fairies and elves. I think there's more proof for their existence than the existence of God.

That aside, for me religion is the cause of many problems in the world. It would be a far more peaceful place without extreme believers, or even believers in general. I think people believe because they were educated or raised that way and ended up in the environment of religion.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #35 on: May 17, 2008, 06:27 PM »
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Then it's my position that if there is a God, he has always existed... I'm not quite understanding why both beliefs can't co-exist.


Because the big bang is a solid theory without invoking God.  It is known why it happened.  Saying God did it isn't merely superfluous.  It's wrong.

We know the universe exists, so it is far more plausible to say that it has always existed.  We do not know that a God exists.  Nothing suggests there exists such an entity.  The world operates exactly as it would if no God existed.

I am saying that the universe (which we know exists) has probably always been.  You are suggesting that a sentient being (which all available evidence contradicts the existence of) has always been.  That is a far greater leap of faith.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #36 on: May 17, 2008, 06:28 PM »
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I saw a film in class, I believe it was called 'Zeitgeist', and it showed several proofs that the Christian faith is entirely based on the Egyptian astrology and therefore doesn't have any link towards the existence of a real God.

However, I think many of those documentaries search for far-fetched proof, but some points were very well made and not completely made up. Of course, I remain sceptical on any theory.

What I also find annoying is when people who believe in God laugh when somebody says they believe in fairies and elves. I think there's more proof for their existence than the existence of God.

That aside, for me religion is the cause of many problems in the world. It would be a far more peaceful place without extreme believers, or even believers in general. I think people believe because they were educated or raised that way and ended up in the environment of religion.


Very good post.
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Mark
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #37 on: May 17, 2008, 06:40 PM »
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Indeed Smile
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eira_arian
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #38 on: May 17, 2008, 07:11 PM »
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But what would we believe in if we didn't have religion? Whether you believe in it or not, it serves a socially calming purpose for the vast majority of people, calming their fears, tempering the pain of loss and grief and explaining inexplicable events. It's human nature that we look to allay our fears through spiritual or supernatural means - if they were removed, what then? Surely we'd turn to individuals to fulfil the same function, raising up humans to demi-god status and giving them great and terrible power to act on our behalf? This, surely, would end up with the same result as we have now, with extremist movements looking to seek power through violent means in order to prove their belief is right.
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deedee
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #39 on: May 17, 2008, 07:23 PM »
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Doesn't life itself suffice to keep going? Why do you need something to believe in?

What you're saying is true, as religion was the opium to keep the people calm a century ago. But today, the law should be enough for that.
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eira_arian
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #40 on: May 17, 2008, 07:27 PM »
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You can't believe in the law for everything. The law can't explain the earthuake in China or the death of a relative or the reason that you keep living. What we believe in might have changed from a century ago, but why we believe hasn't. So life itself is not enough for most people, no. If you want to make such a comparison, I'd go for science, not law.
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deedee
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #41 on: May 17, 2008, 07:55 PM »
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I never said the law did those things, I said the law kept the people calm.

An earthquake can be explained through science, even for some religious people. Not all people who believe say the world is flawless.

I find it unfortunate that life doesn't suffice for most people as it's an incredible gift you've got. Dying is part of life.
If belief in the afterlife lessens the pain of losing a relative for someone, I'm happy for them. I just think there's no more torture than being torn away from your family so 'heaven' is not a consolation. It seems like a way out so you don't have to face the facts.

I don't entirely believe that death is one black hole. I feel that the human body dies, but somehow a little part remains. There's nothing wrong with hoping for being re-united after death, but I'm not a fan of expressing religion through bibles, acts and judgements.
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Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #42 on: May 17, 2008, 08:13 PM »
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A few points I thought of as i read this topic just now: firstly, I thought Mark's point that its possible to combine the belief in god with a belief in scientific theories, an extremely good point, and actually one i believe in. Secondly, anyone who says evolution or the big bang is fact, obviously hasn't investigated the subject properly, since that so isn't true! Their are so many questions on both theories, so many respected scientists who disagree with one or both of those theories, that its silly to call it fact. Thirdly, there is a huge amount of literature investigating the bible, both Jewish and Christian, which can explain many or all of the difficulties there, so its naive to say that its impossible to believ the bible if you go into it.
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netcord
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Miles who?

Re: Who created us? « Reply #43 on: May 17, 2008, 08:24 PM »
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'Mon the aliens! cmon yeah  
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AL1874
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What was I drinking last night?

Re: Who created us? « Reply #44 on: May 17, 2008, 08:44 PM »
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Because the big bang is a solid theory without invoking God.  It is known why it happened.  Saying God did it isn't merely superfluous.  It's wrong.

We know the universe exists, so it is far more plausible to say that it has always existed.  We do not know that a God exists.  Nothing suggests there exists such an entity.  The world operates exactly as it would if no God existed.

I am saying that the universe (which we know exists) has probably always been.  You are suggesting that a sentient being (which all available evidence contradicts the existence of) has always been.  That is a far greater leap of faith.



But that is all it is a theory it is not fact, once the theory is questioned with an opposing theory it is debated and on the balance of opinion one becomes accepted. It is not conclusive proof that it is actually what took place, just the best explanation of what might have happened at that point in time.

An example of this is with Stephen Hawking when he originally released his research it was accepted by the scientific community, however the dissenting voice of Perskill would not accept his work on the information leaking from a black hole. Hawking was later to accept he was wrong and changed to Perskills version.

So who is to say that the Big Bang theory in which you place your trust will be solid in the future?

Is it not extremely arrogant to say that anyone who disagrees with it is wrong?
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