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Author Topic: Who created us?  (Read 5948 times)
Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #60 on: May 17, 2008, 10:30 PM »
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Every orthodox Jewish person believes the entire Old Testament to be the precise word of God, and not a parable of any sort at all.
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Granny
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #61 on: May 17, 2008, 10:31 PM »
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OK, the orthodox Jewish person is not quite the same as the average CofE Christian then.  For instance, I regard the Book of Job to be a parable of our current times.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #62 on: May 17, 2008, 10:33 PM »
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Clydey, its not true what you say about evolution. It might be agreed that the methods of evolution could happen and maybe are constantly happening, but the theory that that it all started from one cell etc, is not agreed to by many scientists. There was actually a poll of scientists in the 90's, and a majority did not believe evolution is the answer. It is a commonly accepted fact that evolution is given more credence by the masses then it should be. I'll try to find some references to what I say, but it'll be quite difficult, since i don't have access to a computer at this time.
Concerning the bible, there are explanations for any questions you could ask, which are accepted by millions, rome a lot cleverer and more knowledgeable then you. So don't be so arrogant to suggest that they're definitely rubbish, like I don't say your beliefs are definitely rubbish.


Evolution is a fact.  It is not something any serious person debates.  If new evidence comes to light that contradicts it, so be it.  It won't, though.  Evolution is an observable fact.  The fossil record backs it up, genetics back it up.

For every person you cite who opposes evolution, I can provide 1000 who accept it.  You will not find ONE secular scientist who does not accept evolution, not one.  The only scientists who do not accept it are religious.  Do not make the mistake of confusion evolution and natural selection.  They cannot be used interchangeably.

Show me the poll.  I will stake my life on no such poll existing.  If you really want me to, I could cite mountains of evidence, peer reviewed papers etc. etc.  You would be left looking pretty silly, as no serious scientist denies that we evolved.  You're so far off the mark, it's not even funny.
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Bevc
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #63 on: May 17, 2008, 10:37 PM »
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New topic as its clear this Religious debate is in the completely wrong thread.


It would appear that it's the way things go on here Whistle
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Granny
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #64 on: May 17, 2008, 10:38 PM »
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Missing the point again.  Apart from the fact that evolution is still just a theory, there is nothing in it that denys belief in God.
May I refer you to someone much more knowledgeable than I - I refer of course to John Polkinghorne, a famous scientist who, through his scientific studies, became convinced of the existence of God and decided to be ordained as a priest.  You will find details of him here.http://www.starcourse.org/jcp/  I suggest you read some of his excellent books.
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Mark
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #65 on: May 17, 2008, 10:38 PM »
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It would appear that it's the way things go on here Whistle
How do you never get involved in these arguments? lol
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #66 on: May 17, 2008, 10:39 PM »
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As I said before, the Bible is not one book, it is many.  There were many other books that were not included in the final version.  There is no synopsis of the whole work, as it would simply not make sense - these books were written over a period of thousands of years.
Most theologians these days regard the first chapters of Genesis as fable.  I know there are 'fundamentalist Christians' in America that regard it as literally true.  I believe that fundamentalist Christians are just as dangerous as fundamentalist Muslims.
What is quite amazing, though, is how scientifically accurate the first chapter of Genesis is compared with what other contemporary religions believed.  The Greeks believed that the universe was created by the spilling of the guts of a god.  The Egyptians believed that the universe was created as the result of a god's masturbation.  But the account in the Bible is exactly what scientists believe, if someone could have been on the earth to record it (assuming a 'day' is not one of our days - and why on earth should it be?).  I think the person that wrote that account was definitely inspired by God - how else could he have come up with such a scientific account, in the correct chronological order (lower beings first, man last) otherwise?


There are no degrees of scientific accuracy, particularly when it comes to creationism.  God created the world in 7 (or 6, whatever floats your boat) days?

What on earth makes you think the chronological order was correct?  I must have missed the part about the dinosaurs.
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AL1874
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #67 on: May 17, 2008, 10:39 PM »
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AL, you are making a common error.  You have confused the colloquial definition of "theory" with the scientific definition of a "theory".

A scientific theory is a large body of evidence that has withstood empirical analysis.  Something like evolution, which has not only withstood testing for over 100 years but has predicted certain things that would corroborate that theory, is an extremely strong theory.  It is as certain as gravity.  Facts are what we explain using scientific theories.  They are not nearly as powerful in science as they are in popular culture.  See these websites.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html

I could go on and on and on.  It is a fact that we evolved.

The big bang theory is not as solid as evolution.  It is a good, widely supported theory.  It can not yet be considered as strong as evolution or gravity, for example.




What is it with you and evolution?

It has been accepted by many Religions including my own, by the nature of your posts it seems that if you have a faith you must be a creationist which is simply not true or that if you accept evolution it must be against your churches teachings which is another fallacy.

You completely missed the point on scientific theory

I have an Msc so I think know the definition of a scientific theory, I think you are making a common error and thinking that it is cast in stone.

Just because it has been peer reviewed today and become accepted does not mean that at a time in future it will remain so, it is only a snap shot for a time period and what was a solid scientific theory in 1950 may not necessarily be so in 2050.  
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Bevc
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #68 on: May 17, 2008, 10:39 PM »
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How do you never get involved in these arguments? lol


If I told you, I'd have to kill you afterwards lol
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #69 on: May 17, 2008, 10:39 PM »
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Every orthodox Jewish person believes the entire Old Testament to be the precise word of God, and not a parable of any sort at all.


Do you realise how depraved their beliefs would be if that was the case?
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Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #70 on: May 17, 2008, 10:42 PM »
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Like i said, scientists may agree that evolution is correct and is constantly happening, but do not believe that is what actually happened, that we started with one cell etc.
I actually saw a list some years ago of secular scientistis who don't agree with the theory. One of the biggest reasons people don't hold of evolution is the complete absence of 99.9% of the stages which there should be if evolution is correct. In fact I've heard of the fossil record being described as a lack of a fossil record by some scientists.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #71 on: May 17, 2008, 10:44 PM »
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Missing the point again.  Apart from the fact that evolution is still just a theory, there is nothing in it that denys belief in God.
May I refer you to someone much more knowledgeable than I - I refer of course to John Polkinghorne, a famous scientist who, through his scientific studies, became convinced of the existence of God and decided to be ordained as a priest.  You will find details of him here.http://www.starcourse.org/jcp/  I suggest you read some of his excellent books.




I can name you another one:  Francis Collins.

Guess how many scientists I could name that became atheists as a result of science?

Also, did you even read my other posts?  You are not distinguishing between the colloquial definition of a theory and the scientific definition of a theory.

Here's some websites.  A theory in science is stringer than a fact.  Did you know that gravity is also still a theory?  I assume you wouldn't walk off of a building and expect to live, though.


http://www.talkorigins.or.../faqs/evolution-fact.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...lution_as_theory_and_fact

http://www.actionbioscien...org/evolution/lenski.html

Those sites will explain the different uses of the word theory.
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Yamor
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #72 on: May 17, 2008, 10:46 PM »
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Don't be idiotic, gravity is a theory, but the fact that things fall to earth is a fact.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #73 on: May 17, 2008, 10:47 PM »
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What is it with you and evolution?

It has been accepted by many Religions including my own, by the nature of your posts it seems that if you have a faith you must be a creationist which is simply not true or that if you accept evolution it must be against your churches teachings which is another fallacy.

You completely missed the point on scientific theory

I have an Msc so I think know the definition of a scientific theory, I think you are making a common error and thinking that it is cast in stone.

Just because it has been peer reviewed today and become accepted does not mean that at a time in future it will remain so, it is only a snap shot for a time period and what was a solid scientific theory in 1950 may not necessarily be so in 2050.  



No, a common error is calling evolution a theory and not a fact, when it is both.  If you knew the definition of a scientific theory, you wouldn't use the word "theory" as a means of undermining it.  Calling it a theory only strengthens it.  Did you also know that facts are less powerful scientific tools than theories?

Besides, I'm mainly arguing this point with Yamor.  I was merely telling you why calling it a theory does nothing to undermine it.
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Clydey
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Re: Who created us? « Reply #74 on: May 17, 2008, 10:50 PM »
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Don't be idiotic, gravity is a theory, but the fact that things fall to earth is a fact.


I'm resisting the temptation to say "LOL".

Evolution is a theory, and the fact that we evolved is a fact.  Any clearer?

The theory of evolution does not concern itself with life's origins.  It concerns how we evolved, how we adapted.  This occurred AFTER the first cell.
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