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Magnificent Murray ends 76 years of hurt

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teejay1
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #390 on: September 26, 2012, 01:58 PM »
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Actually he hasn't always played well in windy conditions - remember Indian Wells when Rafa beat him easily when Andy didn't cope with the wind. I think he's taught himself to deal better with wind and I think he prepared better for the wind than Nole did.

Just a thought Ruthie, do you think that Andy benefits more from five set matches in the wind than he might in three sets, such as Indian Wells?

It seems to me that sometimes it can take Andy a little while to work out the wind, like in the semi with Berdych for example, but once he's got it he's able to deal with it well. I'm thinking of the Berdych match in particular as an example because the wind was doing different things depending on which side of the court the players were on, and that must have been weird, but Andy, once he was in his stride, coped with it better than Berdych.

The problem, it seems to me, is that in a three set match you can't make adjustments so easily, there isn't time, whereas in a five set match you can work out what the wind is doing, what you need to do, and then you can work your way back in. Does that make some sense?
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teejay1
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #391 on: September 26, 2012, 02:38 PM »
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Andy must often have felt fear yet he kept going and going until he conquered it.  There were times in his career when he could simply have given up, but he didn't.  I'd be naive if I said he would never feel nervous or fearful again during the rest of his career, but at least he knows now that he CAN master it.

I think this is it in a nutshell. I was watching Andy closely throughout the final, not just his play, but him, his manner, his expressions. It was really something. I really do think he faced up to his fears in the final, really confronted the doubt, and conquered it.

I really can't imagine what those last couple of hours before that final must have been like for Andy. He spoke so honestly about how nervous he was, how he still had doubts, but I don't think anyone who hasn't been in that situation can really understand what it must be like, especially when you've been in that situation before and have very little positive experience to take from it. That's where I think Lendl is worth his weight in gold, because he knows exactly how it feels, because his experiences were similar. I can just about remember when Lendl was considered to be a bottler, who would try, but never come through. How wrong that was, exactly in the same way as it was wrong of people to write off Andy as not having the mental strength to come through.

The more I think about it the more I am glad that Andy had to fight in the final. If he'd won in straight sets, which did seem possible at one point, people who don't know different would have tried to explain away what he'd achieved. You all know the sort of thing, it would have been 'oh well, the wind helped him', or 'Djokovic must have been tired, or injured, or not up for it', or worse, 'Djokovic must have felt sorry for his mate, decided he was due a win and handed it to him'. Those were the sorts of things used to explain Andy's Olympics triumph. God forbid that Andy won because he totally outplayed Federer! However, if it had been straight sets at the USO the excuses would have followed, even if they made no sense. I also think it might have left Andy still wondering if he could really fight off one of the top 3 in a final if it came down to the wire, and might not have helped him to overcome the doubt. Having fought though, and won, Andy will surely know now that he can fight, that he has it within himself to dig deep when he needs to and come through. I think that is what some of the pundits mean when they suggest that subsequent major wins will probably be easier for Andy now. It's not that the competition will get easier, but that Andy will know now that he can do it.

I think it would be daft to think that Andy will never again face a tight moment in a match where he doesn't wonder if he can win through, even for a second. I think in the past, certainly in major finals, he hasn't had anything hugely positive to draw strength from when things have got tough, apart from Wimbledon perhaps, where although he didn't win, he fought his heart out. However, next time Andy is in a major final, and I'm convinced there will be a next time, and several next times after that, I feel sure he will have the memory of knowing that he has done it before, and there is no reason on earth why he can not do it again, and I'm convinced it will help him.

I have to say it, we've witnessed some wonderful sporting success in Britain this year, what with the Olympics and such. For me though, as much as I think all the success is wonderful, and all the sports men and women deserve so much credit, Andy's triumphs top my list for most memorable and emotional moments. We've witnessed Andy lose in major finals and continue to fight, even in the face of doubt, both from himself and others, that he would ever do it. We've seen him overcome the pressure at Wimbledon to get in to his first final there, and then we've seen him respond to the disappointment of losing by picking himself up and putting himself on the line again in the Olympics. We've seen him play some of the best tennis I can ever remember from him to win the Olympics, and then we've seen him back that up beautifully by winning the USO. In my book it doesn't get much better than that.
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Alis
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #392 on: September 26, 2012, 02:48 PM »
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............  nor in mine TJ - good post!
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Ruthie
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #393 on: September 26, 2012, 03:07 PM »
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tj not sure re your 5 set theory as Andy coped with the wind much better than Nole for first 2 sets and it was when Nole started dealing with it better that he broke back.   I just think Andy is a better all round player now than in that IW match and that he and Lendl had really prepared. Eg US comms said that Andy had practised on Ashe at both ends of court to get a feel for the wind earlier that day whereas Nole had practised on an outside court, which seems a strange thing to do.
I agree v much that in the end the victory meant much for for being so hard fought.   In that last set Andy showed a degree of mental strength that many believed he simply didn't have.  Like you I'm sure Mr L has helped him with that.   And now it stands as the joint longest final in USO history.
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Aileen
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #394 on: September 26, 2012, 07:27 PM »
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I agree Andy seems to be more settled. I am glad he had a talk to himself when out for a toilet break. We all know he can win it was just a matter of time. He has become more determined and courageous in going for his shots. I think he was quite dumbfounded when he won he just could not believe it. You have won your first slam Andy and we all know you will have more. Well done Andy 2012 is your time good luck for the rest of the year.
I think he was dumbfounded when he won his gold medal, but Andy said himself that his first overwhelming feeling when he realised he'd won his first Slam was that of relief.  How he must have felt realising he'd got that monkey off his back.  And also I reckon Andy knew that if he didn't win this Slam his career would effectively be over.
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Ruthie
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #395 on: September 26, 2012, 07:30 PM »
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Yes and relief was exactly what I felt.  I didn't even dare to think what would have happened to Andy had he lost from 2 sets up.   Just been watching all the interviews on bbc website - had me  again.
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Aileen
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #396 on: September 26, 2012, 07:34 PM »
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Just a thought Ruthie, do you think that Andy benefits more from five set matches in the wind than he might in three sets, such as Indian Wells?

It seems to me that sometimes it can take Andy a little while to work out the wind, like in the semi with Berdych for example, but once he's got it he's able to deal with it well. I'm thinking of the Berdych match in particular as an example because the wind was doing different things depending on which side of the court the players were on, and that must have been weird, but Andy, once he was in his stride, coped with it better than Berdych.

The problem, it seems to me, is that in a three set match you can't make adjustments so easily, there isn't time, whereas in a five set match you can work out what the wind is doing, what you need to do, and then you can work your way back in. Does that make some sense?
My own opinion generally is that there's much more room for manoeuvre in best of fives to enable players to deal with things like coping with the wind or working out their own and their opponent's tactics.  It's still possible to come back from two sets down and win.  In best of threes players don't have that luxury, which is why Andy's typical slow starts were always so worrying.  Players have to play like they want to win from the start, not half-way through the match.



Yes and relief was exactly what I felt.  I didn't even dare to think what would have happened to Andy had he lost from 2 sets up.   Just been watching all the interviews on bbc website - had me  again.
Ruthie I actually felt physically ill during the 3rd and 4th sets because I knew what the outcome would be if Andy lost, then started jumping up and down and screaming in the 5th when I realised that YES!  he could do it.  The whole thing left me feeling drained for a couple of days afterwards.  Andy's matches should carry a Government health warning!  
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Ruthie
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #397 on: September 26, 2012, 09:30 PM »
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Aileen my companion said he thought he was about to be sick with tension in the final set and he's only a PT fan!
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #398 on: September 26, 2012, 11:39 PM »
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http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/09/reading-readers-sept-25/39563/

Lucky Andy?

Steve,
I was happy for Murray [winning the U.S. Open]. It would have been borderline unbearable for him to have lost another Grand Slam final, especially from two sets up. And I understand that it's politically correct to celebrate Andy's perseverance and success, but I have a contrary point of view to express, if for no other reason, just to spice things up. So here goes.
 
Although he did play well, I felt this victory was the gods’ chance to give Murray a tennis version of a lifetime achievement award. He didn’t seem to be the “better” finalist, but in the high winds, Murray’s superior slice and his overall better junk-ball side, combined with the fact that Novak had to play three days running (and four of the last five), swung the balance. Add to that the fact that Rafa was out and Roger lost a bit of focus and capitulated to a white-hot Berdych.

And...had the Djoko/Ferrer semi been contested simultaneously (on Louis Armstrong) with Murray/Berdych, Ferrer would probably have won, as Novak looked at sea in the tornado conditions. Then, Ferrer would have had a chance of beating Murray in the still-windy final.
 
So kudos to Andy, but I don't think this really alters the balance at the top of the game.—d
 
---------------------------------------------------
D, you seem to have forgotten to mention that Rod Laver is 74 years old and retired—wasn’t that a bit of good luck for Murray, too?
 
My point is, every Grand Slam win is partly a series of occurrences beyond a player’s control. Sometimes he gets the breaks, sometimes he doesn’t, and this is true for everyone, not just Andy Murray. But your comment does raise the point of whether, or how much, we should mention extenuating circumstances in a player’s Grand Slam victories. At the extreme end, we might call this the asterisk debate.
 
You could, if you weren’t a fan of Murray’s, frame his breakthrough major this way: First, Nadal, who had beaten him at two majors in 2011, wasn’t there; second, Federer, who had beaten him in the Wimbledon final in 2012, lost the round before; third, Djokovic, who had knocked Murray out of the Aussie Open earlier this year, was hurt by the wind and had played the previous day.
 
Or, if you were a fan of Murray’s, you could frame it this way: He came back from the dead to beat Marin Cilic on a day when he was horribly off; in the semis he played a smart match in the wind to defuse a previously hot opponent, Berdych, who had a 4-2 record against him; and in the final he gutted out a five-setter over the hard-court-loving defending champion, Djokovic, who had played well in his previous two matches.

To me, there are no asterisked Slam titles, and there’s no need to mention any supposedly mitigating circumstances; 128 of the world’s best players set out to win seven matches, and only one of them does—that’s an accomplishment worth praising. And there was certainly no shame in the fact that Murray only had to beat one member of the Top 3 along the way. That's how it usually works for all of the top guys.
 
In Nadal’s 11 major-title runs, he's had to beat both Djokovic and Federer three times, all at the French Open, in 2006, '07, and '08. In Djokovic’s five Slam-winning runs, he's had to beat Federer and Nadal once, at the 2011 U.S. Open (Del Potro did the same thing, in reverse order, at the Open in 2009). Federer has never won a major in which he faced both Nadal and Djokovic.
 
I'm not saying any of those guys had it easy, of course; what I am trying to say is that Murray's win wasn't a fluke of good fortune. Does it mean there will be a change at the top of the men’s game? Not necessarily, or even probably. But Murray earned this one.
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Aileen
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #399 on: September 27, 2012, 03:12 AM »
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^ Very interesting.  Thanks for posting. Smile  So it won't alter the balance at the top of the game?  Nadal's future is uncertain, Federer isn't the force he used to be, and Djokovic isn't the player he was last year.  In fact the only one of the four who seems to be on the up is Murray.
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #400 on: September 27, 2012, 07:06 AM »
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I wouldn't start discounting anybody in the top 10 quite yet Whistle
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teejay1
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #401 on: September 27, 2012, 01:20 PM »
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Hi All,

Reading that comment from someone who clearly didn't like the fact that Andy won the USO made me fume. I don't know why people just can't deal with the fact that Andy won, and that is it. All this endless, 'well he wouldn't have won if......' really angers me. Mind you, what I did smile about was the reference to Ferrer, the suggestion that if he'd beaten Djokovic he would have then beaten Andy in the final. Er, I know Andy has had some close encounters with Ferrer, so if he had played him in the final it would probably still have been a long match, but the fact is that Ferrer has only beaten Andy once on anything other than clay, at the WTF last year, if I recall, when Andy wasn't right by any stretch of the imagination. That suggests that had he been playing Ferrer, Andy would probably have still won the USO.

I suppose we'll see what effect it has longer term at the top. I don't see Andy going backwards now, I really don't. He may not dominate the game, but, as I think I have said before, does he really need to? A good spell at world no.1 would be nice though, but I have to say it, if it was a choice of that or another slam, I'd take another slam any time. Doing both would be fine though Andy, I wouldn't mind  Whistle.

I'm sort of wary of writing off Smugfed. I've done it before and the horrible man has shown me up. That said, there has to be a point where the body says enough. I think he is reaching that point. He definitely looks slower out there these days, as if he doesn't quite trust his legs now.

Nadal is a definite question. I don't know, but it doesn't sound great for him. It's been a while since he's won any major except the French, and you have to wonder if he can change that if he isn't fully fit. I'm very dubious.

I think Djokovic is in a weird place right now. He's not looking as secure or confident as he did last year, when he was dominating. I did think a while back that he could start reverting back almost as fast as he picked his game up last year, perhaps going back to the moaning, complaining etc. It still wouldn't surprise me, in fact he does do it, and can certainly lose his rag, under pressure. That's clearly something that could be exploited by an opponent. What I do think is that he is very wary of Andy these days. Mind you, Andy has won 3 of their last four encounters, so he has a point.

It does all rather point to a bit of a changing of the guard at the top there. My feeling after the USO was that we could be moving in to a period where Andy and Novak split the top prizes between them, especially in the majors. I can definitely see that happening, and I'd love it.
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #402 on: September 27, 2012, 01:58 PM »
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I just ignore the people discounting Andy's win (the same people strangely enough who said that he'd never win a slam Whistle). They're just disappointed because their prediction was wrong. I don't understand the argument of Andy being so lucky that it was windy - it affects both players, Andy just happened to adjust to it better than both Berdych and Djokovic. Djokovic in particular should have adjusted better, especially after his struggles against Ferrer in the first set. But Andy's record against Djokovic on fast hardcourts speaks for itself - I believe he'd have won that match anyway, even under perfect weather conditions.

It's difficult to know exactly how Andy will react in the short term to having won a slam - sometimes slam champions go on a roll, others go into a slump. But what I do know is that as a fan I'll feel much more relaxed during the slams now that Andy's won one. And hopefully Andy will too. He's definitely talented enough to win multiple slams, and I think he will do it.
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Ruthie
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #403 on: September 27, 2012, 02:31 PM »
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It's a pity that these people who are trying to undermine Andy's achievement don't take a lead from Nole himself who was very generous in his response to it.  I'm not a great Nole fan but he's a good loser and he was the first to say Andy deserved to win.
I think we have to accept that Andy might have a bit of a dip as he adjusts to his new status etc but if he does we should be patient as I'm sure it won't last and my main hope is that he comes good at 02 and wins end of year championship to make it a hat trick of big wins.
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teejay1
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Re: Exultant Murray ends 76 years of hurt « Reply #404 on: September 27, 2012, 03:30 PM »
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Hi Ruthie, Katie and all,

I think it's interesting to see what can happen to slam winners. I was watching some of the women in Tokyo yesterday, and it struck me how Li Na, for example, has never been quite the same since she won the French. I think the consensus of opinion is that she got so wrapped up in everything that goes with winning a slam that she took her eye off the ball, so to speak.
'
I think in Andy's case it could go either way to be honest, and both would be understandable. What I don't think Andy will do is get carried away with all the frills that go with winning a slam. He just seems too down to earth for that. I'm sure he will be more in demand though now, and I hope he deals with that. I think he will.

I think the danger, if I can call it that, at least in the immediate future, will be if Andy doesn't get the same buzz out of the regular tournaments as he has clearly got from the Olympics and the USO. Andy seems to thrive on big crowds, big atmospheres etc. Tokyo, for example, might not feel quite as much of a thrill as Flushing Meadows lol.

Of course, backing up what he did at the Olympics with winning the USO could do wonders for Andy's confidence, and he could come out in Tokyo raring to go again. If he does that I wouldn't envy anyone trying to take him on.

It's interesting though. I was talking to a lady at church at the weekend. She knew I was confident that Andy would win the USO and couldn't wait to come over and tell me I was right, which I thought was funny. We got talking about what the future could hold, and she said that the one tournament she feels Andy could struggle to win is Wimbledon, because of the pressure he is under there, which may well increase now. I could see where she is coming from, it does make sense. I've often felt that the pressure that is dumped on Andy every year at Wimbledon is really unhelpful. However, I do think there is a difference now, which might help. In the past, including this year, Andy has gone in to Wimbledon wanting to do well, and he has. He has also only had the memory of those major final losses when he has gone deep in to the tournament. Next year, if Andy gets to the semi's, or hopefully the final, he will surely know he can do it, because he has done it before. I hope that will help him through those pressure moments.

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