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Murray vanquished by history

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indirachap
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #150 on: July 12, 2012, 04:27 PM »
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WRONG.
And i really don't buy the GOAT argument.

I reckon I have irrefutable proof that Federer is the greatest player of all time:

Andy has probably improved the most these last 5 years of all those in the top 10. Andy and Federer were neck and neck five years ago. Andy and Federer are neck and neck now. Therefore Federer at 30 has improved just as much as Andy at 25. This improvement must mean that the Federer now must be better than the Federer 5 years ago. As he was no
1 and the greatest player of all time five years ago. Federer must be better than that now! If that's possible???
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Aileen
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #151 on: July 12, 2012, 04:33 PM »
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I've permanently banned him.
Thanks Mark. Smile
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theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #152 on: July 12, 2012, 05:15 PM »
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I reckon I have irrefutable proof that Federer is the greatest player of all time:

Andy has probably improved the most these last 5 years of all those in the top 10. Andy and Federer were neck and neck five years ago. Andy and Federer are neck and neck now. Therefore Federer at 30 has improved just as much as Andy at 25. This improvement must mean that the Federer now must be better than the Federer 5 years ago. As he was no
1 and the greatest player of all time five years ago. Federer must be better than that now! If that's possible???

A bit of a circular argument you have going on there. Assumptive too.
Federer is a better player than 5 years ago I think as well, but that doesn't mean he is the greatest player of all time now or then. I think he's one of the greatest for sure but really this whole argument is redundant anyway, different eras, surfaces and opponents.
Five years ago Roger was certainly a better player than Andy was.
But five years ago Roger was not the greatest player of all time to me anyway.
He had just come off cleaning up during one of the weakest eras in modern tennis. And then came Nadal.
And so he had to improve his game going on if he was to remain competitve.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #153 on: July 12, 2012, 05:42 PM »
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I reckon I have irrefutable proof that Federer is the greatest player of all time:

Andy has probably improved the most these last 5 years of all those in the top 10. Andy and Federer were neck and neck five years ago. Andy and Federer are neck and neck now. Therefore Federer at 30 has improved just as much as Andy at 25. This improvement must mean that the Federer now must be better than the Federer 5 years ago. As he was no
1 and the greatest player of all time five years ago. Federer must be better than that now! If that's possible???

This is not making much sense to be honest. Andy and Federer were definitely not neck to neck five years ago. How did you come up with that? Based on their H2H back then? It only means Andy was a great player to start with but by no means he was in Federer's caliber, simply because he didn't have the same experience and he still doesn't, because Federer is still five years older than him and has double the experience than Andy.

And where exactly did Federer improve? Every since Nadal's rise in 2008, Federer basically had to take a backseat and had to wait for someone else to take Nadal out, so that he could win a Slam or two. It's that simple. Since 2008, Federer has won 5 Slams and these 5 Slams came at the expense of players like Murray (pressure problem), Roddick (consistent but not good enough) and Soderling (almost out and gone with mono).

Since 2008, Federer's H2H vs Nadal is 0-5 and against Nole, it's 4-5, which means both players - Nole and Nadal - are leading Federer in the GS H2Hs department. Where do you see this big difference when Federer is still beating the likes of Soderling and Roddick in order to win a Slam and still completely out of water with Nadal? If these players (Rafa, Nole and Andy) were to play in his weak era (2003-2007) he would have found his hands full. Forget 17 Slams, he would have been very happy with 8. You can't just make blanket statements like that just to make Federer look and sound so great when there are so many things to take into account.
[ Last edit by Emma Jean July 12, 2012, 05:46 PM ] IP Logged
theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #154 on: July 12, 2012, 05:52 PM »
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This is not making much sense to be honest. Andy and Federer were definitely not neck to neck five years ago. How did you come up with that? Based on their H2H back then? It only means Andy was a great player to start with but by no means he was in Federer's caliber, simply because he didn't have the same experience and he still doesn't, because Federer is still five years older than him and has double the experience than Andy.


^^^For the record EJ, Federer is almost 6 years older than Andy.
He'll be 31 imminently.
On the eight of next month to be precise.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #155 on: July 12, 2012, 06:00 PM »
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Oh right, so he's basically 31 and six years of more experience than Andy.
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theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #156 on: July 12, 2012, 06:12 PM »
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Oh right, so he's basically 31 and six years of more experience than Andy.

That's Right,
And given your prodigious knowledge of the tour I'm surprised you didn't know that one. But then, youre no secret fed Fan like some of our new arrivals are you?
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Ruthie
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #157 on: July 12, 2012, 06:28 PM »
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I'm not so naive as to be totally taken in by this, but Fed sounded genuine enough in that article.  I think Andy's reaction really did strike a chord with him.  Empathy can't be manufactured, it has to be there in the first place.  However, I fully expect a return to the old Federer very soon.
I doubt his PR team were so clairvoyant that they could foretell the outcome of the tournament, and I think they would have been a bit hard-pushed to get Federer to change his attitude in the time available once it was known that he and Andy would meet in the final.


I thinksmug fed might have been taken aback by the level of support for Andy.  He's not stupid and will be aware of the ambivalence expressed towards Andy among British [esp English] tennis fans.  I think he was talking up home favourite support beforehand in the expectation it would fall short and his support would exceed it.  While of course there was support for him - there always is and I've said before not everyone there would be British anyway - I was really pleased that the support for Andy exceeded it.  It could have done with more expression at times when Andy needed buoying up bytthe crowd but I suspect it affected how smugfed reacted at the end.  And while I hate his smugness, like Aileen I did detect a genuine sense of empathy with Andy and a warmth between them I've never ever seen before.  I think the sheer force of Andy's genuine emotion rubbed off on him.
Btw for first time read an article in mainstream media which sees through the mask.  In INdie on Sunday by Robert Epstein on back of a pullout about Andy written before the final and I only got round to reading yesterday.  Names his arrogance and calls him haughty. And at end says 'And now the Scotsman can wipe that insufferable grin from Federer's face.  Come on Andy - your country needs you'.  Wish more of the media could say it like it is.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #158 on: July 12, 2012, 06:30 PM »
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That's Right,
And given your prodigious knowledge of the tour I'm surprised you didn't know that one. But then, youre no secret fed Fan like some of our new arrivals are you?

I knew that actually but here, I temporarily forgot.

But hey! mind your beeswax. :p

I don’t mind Fed fans actually as long as they are true to their selves and present arguments that can be argued back or at least have solid reasons behind it. The likes of kris definitely not that type or kind one would want to have a discussion with. There are many good Fed fans out there and I've always enjoyed talking to them. With kris though, I was just having some fun but it did get out of hand last night.  
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indirachap
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #159 on: July 12, 2012, 06:34 PM »
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Fair comments by both Emma Jean and theycanbillme but I will still stick to my opinion nonetheless. I agree one has to look at the whole picture but who else would you pick? Nadal? Can one pick someone who had lost 7 times in a row to the same person recently?

I feel the pressure on a single-backhander at the highest level is far greater than a double-hander.  The single-hander is far more likely to breakdown under sustained attack and it is far more difficult for a single hander to thread the needle down the court and to cope with good-length heavy topspin. And this is one of the reasons why I pick Federer. Tennis  is so much more difficult for the single hander in my opinion so that when a single-hander comes up with a record like Federer's it's impossible not to support him.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #160 on: July 12, 2012, 09:24 PM »
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Single handed backhand goes very well with a serve & volley game but with a baseline game, I’d say double handed backhand more effective. More control, more precision, more power.
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michelle
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #161 on: July 13, 2012, 07:50 AM »
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I went on holiday last Saturday, watched the final and like many others cried with Andy, but was so proud of him. I went into a shop and the lady at the till was talking to a customer about the Final and they were full of praise for Andy, both knew nothing about tennis, and up to this time believed all the negative things written and said about him.However that has all changed now. I haven't been able to get on line til now, and haven't read all the posts, that will have to wait until I get home on the 21st.
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indirachap
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #162 on: July 13, 2012, 11:21 AM »
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Single handed backhand goes very well with a serve & volley game but with a baseline game, I’d say double handed backhand more effective. More control, more precision, more power.

Right and as you say the game has changed - it's a baseline game now. It's just incredible that a single-hander can have a record such as Federer in this era - especially since the courts are that much slower now. IMO we will never see the likes of his type again because history will never produce another leftie like Nadal  simultaneously again  who really is, I believe, the reason Federer has achieved as much as he has done. Nadal's relentless hammering of Federers backhand has made it what it is.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #163 on: July 13, 2012, 06:19 PM »
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Right and as you say the game has changed - it's a baseline game now. It's just incredible that a single-hander can have a record such as Federer in this era - especially since the courts are that much slower now. IMO we will never see the likes of his type again because history will never produce another leftie like Nadal  simultaneously again  who really is, I believe, the reason Federer has achieved as much as he has done. Nadal's relentless hammering of Federers backhand has made it what it is.

Well, Sampras was also a single-hander who saw 14 Slams and that was the record he was chasing after. No one was able to break Laver's record until Sampras and he also set the record of six consecutive years at No. 1. I am sure he was convinced this wasn't going to get broken any time soon. If Federer happened before Sampras, then who knows what would have happened.

Both Nole (5-6 in GS) and Andy (8-8 overall) are quite successful against Federer not just Nadal and both are right handed. It seems only Federer had a lot of problems with Nadal being leftie whereas Nole had none. If you say Federer's backhand is rather weak because it's a single hander then you should also consider this that, Nadal only has his forehand to rely on and yet, he's the most consistent on tour and has seen the most success against Federer. That's his credit to win 11 Slams with only 1 or 2 weapons.

I am sure there will be more lefties in the future. If history can produce one then it sure can produce more. Besides, as it turns out, there are more lefties in the world right now (in general) than ever before.
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Elly
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #164 on: July 13, 2012, 11:25 PM »
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Oh me. I've kept away for my own and everyone else's good.  Just about stopped howling now. However - I do think this final was a breakthrough for Andy.  He showed a very positive side and he's getting there, and I was thinking he may not, ever.  If there is any justice in the world this man will win big. 
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