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Murray vanquished by history

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Iris
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #75 on: July 09, 2012, 04:00 PM »
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Just found the article in the Guardian by Kevin Mitchell Ruthie, it brought tears to my eyes again.  By the way, thanks for the video link of mAndy in the Guardian too Ruthie. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/08/andy-murray-wimbledon-roger-federer?INTCMP=SRCH
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Alis
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #76 on: July 09, 2012, 04:01 PM »
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As for Roger, the stars aligned and he took his chances like the champ he is. That is all.


It seems you are absolutely right about that tcbm - I was reading a piece by an astrologer last week that said Fed's stars for yesterday showed a 'golden alignment' which happens very rarely and she felt the title had to be his.  Interestingly, she also said that Andy's stars have him entering a particularly good period now that will last until the end of 2013 - let's hope that if she was right about Fed, she's right about Andy!
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #77 on: July 09, 2012, 04:39 PM »
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The Rafa of 10' would have found a way to deal with Rosol.
Even if it meant taking as many MTO as he could, to me that was a warning sign and as EJ has said he hasn't won anything out of clay since 10'. I think it will be highly unlikely that he'll dominate out of clay going on and Novak will get closer and closer on the clay again not just in masters but at RG. He may only be 26 but he's been on the tour since he was 15.
This most recent pull out is indicative that even Nadals powers of regenration have a shelf life, i expect we are at the beginning of the end there, and when it comes it will be a lot swifter than Roger's.
As for Roger, the stars aligned and he took his chances like the champ he is. That is all.

Both Federer and Nadal have a lot of mileage on their legs no doubt but we all know Nadal's game is more taxing on his body, so he'll probably see decline earlier than Federer. I mean look what happened to him at this year's Wimbledon. I still feel he has 1 more RG in him. And probably 2 more Slams altogether. These are just guessed estimates btw. It's hard to predict future as it is. Have always thought really that Federer might have 1 more Slam in him and by winning Wimbledon just yesterday, it pretty much confirmed that. Nole is still unpredictable. I don't think he belongs to the same category as Fedal simply because I feel Nole is not as hungry and motivated as those too. I am glad though Nadal went out to a player like Rosol, because had he gone out to Federer by any chance, that would have motivated him to come back one more time and frankly, we don't need that. That pretty much leaves Andy and he’s even more unpredictable than Nole; like for example, we can’t really tell how he’s going to react after he wins his first Slam. Is he going to feel very tired and hang his racquet or is that going to take him to a new level and make him as close a Champion as the other top three. So it all pretty much remains to be seen.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #78 on: July 09, 2012, 04:40 PM »
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It seems you are absolutely right about that tcbm - I was reading a piece by an astrologer last week that said Fed's stars for yesterday showed a 'golden alignment' which happens very rarely and she felt the title had to be his.  Interestingly, she also said that Andy's stars have him entering a particularly good period now that will last until the end of 2013 - let's hope that if she was right about Fed, she's right about Andy!

2013? I want it to last until 2018!
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theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #79 on: July 09, 2012, 04:57 PM »
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Both Federer and Nadal have a lot of mileage on their legs no doubt but we all know Nadal's game is more taxing on this body, so he'll probably see decline earlier than Federer. I mean look what happened to him at this year's Wimbledon. I still feel he has 1 more RG in him. And probably 2 more Slams altogether. These are just guessed estimates btw. It's hard to predict future as it is. Have always thought really that Federer might have 1 more Slam in him and by winning Wimbledon just yesterday, it pretty much confirmed that. Nole is still unpredictable. I don't think he belongs to the same category as Fedal simply because I feel Nole is not as hungry and motivated as those too. I am glad though Nadal went out to a player like Rosol, because had he gone out to Federer by any chance, that would have motivated him to come back one more time and frankly, we don't need that. That pretty much leaves Andy and he’s even more unpredictable than Nole; like for example, we can’t really tell how he’s going to react after he wins his first Slam. Is he going to feel very tired and hang his racquet or is that going to take him to a new level and make him as close a Champions as the other top three. So it all pretty much remains to be seen.

A guestimate?
Nadal is more like a rock star he'll live fast and burn out young, probably. But even if he were to retire say in a year he still will have played more matches and been on the tour longer than many 30 year old players. If he is around in his late 20's i would be very surprised if he was still winning slams. He pulled out of a charity do with Novak, the knees again. He probably will have to go for more medical treatments but i doubt he'll stay on if his long term health will be affected. He's not getting to Rogers slam count now not after yesterday and Djokovic's graduation.
His game was designed for the clay never for pounding about on hardcourts.
But we shall see.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #80 on: July 09, 2012, 05:03 PM »
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Yes, a guestimate. In my eyes though, Nadal will always be the greater player between Federer and himself. Because tennis is not all about surface but who dominates whom as far the champions go and clearly, Nadal trumps Federer in that department. And outside clay, I really believe Sampras would come on top of both and indoors as well.
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theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #81 on: July 09, 2012, 05:06 PM »
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Yes, a guestimate. In my eyes though, Nadal will always be the greater player between Federer and himself. Because tennis is not all about surface but who dominates on whom as far the champions go and clearly, Nadal trumps Federer in that department. And outside clay, I really believe Sampras would come on top of both and indoors as well.

You could be correct I can't say myself and we shall never really know given the changes in surfaces etc But what is clear between fedal is that Nadal is indisputedly the greatest clay courter of all time. Given their h2h i have serious reservations about giving Roger the title of greatest player of all time.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #82 on: July 09, 2012, 05:28 PM »
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Andy gave Federer 3 Slams since 2008 and that's 3 out of 5 Slams in total Federer won since then (would like to keep things in the past tense). Nole none because they have yet to play in a GS final and Nadal none as well. He's won all his GS meetings vs Federer since 2008. The other two culprits are Roddick and Soderling. Del Potro is the only other player to take a Slam from Federer in 2009, which is becoming more and more of an one Slam wonder story. 
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theycanbillme
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #83 on: July 09, 2012, 05:38 PM »
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I thought there were flashes of genius from Federer in the last 2 sets yesterday. None from Andy although the level of Andy's game was extremely high. But its not just about fancy shots its about beating your opponents. Novak was off colour and under the roof and Andy, well as you say, has gifted Federer some of his non weak era titles by taking out his major opponent twice for him.
I couldn't help also noticing that Roger had to face Roddick 3 times for 3 of his wimbledon titles. Pity Andy will never have such luck.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #84 on: July 09, 2012, 05:51 PM »
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I am pissing some of the Federer fans off for sure. This was the last one I had to post.

"Well, obviously I don't worship Federer in the same way you do so I can keep things in perspective as far as Federer is concerned. I am also not a fan of Nadal so you can't really tell that I am blinded by hatred. While Federer is a great player, he's also the luckiest player of all time. If you look into those 5 Slams of his since 2008, you would see why he had won those Slams beating Murray, Soderling and Roddick but never Nadal. Had Soderling not taken Nadal out of 2009 RG, Federer would have never won RG and Wimbledon that year. Soderling was a novice at that year's RG final but did the unthinkable and took out Nadal, something your Maestro couldn't do for years. Do you want to deny his luck? And as to Roddick, well, the match was probably decided on a couple of points in the end. Sure Federer won but for many of us who don't particular worship Federer, there was no winner, but still, Roddick was never Federer’s true nemesis. As to Murray, well, out of his 3 finals against Federer, he took out Nadal, the man Federer feared the most TWICE and made the finals way too easy for him. But still, if Andy wasn't so mentally crippled by the pressure, I am not sure how this would have gone. So yes, I see Federer as the luckiest player of all time because the man he was truly supposed to beat (Nadal), he could never beat. Instead he went to beat the likes of Murray, Roddick and Soderling in the finals since 2008 to win 5 more Slams. You can't beat that argument. If he wants to be a man, then ask him to beat Nadal in a final like Sampras did almost each time until the very end of his career."
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #85 on: July 09, 2012, 06:07 PM »
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I am pissing some of the Federer fans off for sure. This was the last one I had to post.

"Well, obviously I don't worship Federer in the same way you do so I can keep things in perspective as far as Federer is concerned. I am also not a fan of Nadal so you can't really tell that I am blinded by hatred. While Federer is a great player, he's also the luckiest player of all time. If you look into those 5 Slams of his since 2008, you would see why he had won those Slams beating Murray, Soderling and Roddick but never Nadal. Had Soderling not taken Nadal out of 2009 RG, Federer would have never won RG and Wimbledon that year. Soderling was a novice at that year's RG final but did the unthinkable and took out Nadal, something your Maestro couldn't do for years. Do you want to deny his luck? And as to Roddick, well, the match was probably decided on a couple of points in the end. Sure Federer won but for many of us who don't particular worship Federer, there was no winner, but still, Roddick was never Federer’s true nemesis. As to Murray, well, out of his 3 finals against Federer, he took out Nadal, the man Federer feared the most TWICE and made the finals way too easy for him. But still, if Andy wasn't so mentally crippled by the pressure, I am not sure how this would have gone. So yes, I see Federer as the luckiest player of all time because the man he was truly supposed to beat (Nadal), he could never beat. Instead he went to beat the likes of Murray, Roddick and Soderling in the finals since 2008 to win 5 more Slams. You can't beat that argument. If he wants to be a man, then ask him to beat Nadal in a final like Sampras did almost each time until the very end of his career."

It all makes sense to me.
So in conclusion Roger is the LOAT,
Not the GOAT.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #86 on: July 09, 2012, 06:39 PM »
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What a match and some amazing tennis. I cried with Andy and for Andy.
Hold your head well high lad you are on a winning streak and the day is not far away. wub

Nice post! And welcome, nice to see so many new MW members!
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Johnny Handsome
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #87 on: July 09, 2012, 06:57 PM »
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i really believe federers best 3 performances of his career have been those three GSF against murray . What a twat  Sticking tongue out.
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #88 on: July 09, 2012, 08:07 PM »
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i really believe federers best 3 performances of his career have been those three GSF against murray . What a twat  Sticking tongue out.

At least Andy didn't get bageled twice in one match like Hewitt did at the US Open final in 2004!

I was watching some old matches on youtube and watched the end of Lendl's French Open victory in 1984. He'd just won his first slam on his 5th attempt and just did a jump in the air, unlike Federer who has to roll around on the floor for ages with his stupid crocodile tears when he's just won his 17th.

Anyway I found it quite inspiring and I hope with the help of the man himself Andy can have that moment of victory himself some day.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Murray vanquished by history « Reply #89 on: July 09, 2012, 09:17 PM »
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It all makes sense to me.
So in conclusion Roger is the LOAT,
Not the GOAT.

GOAT my foot. Anyway, somehow I got into this argument with some of the Federer fans since last night. Now they are resorting to Federer's "beautiful game" after I challneged them with that Nadal stuff - no answer to that. Just posted this again but I really think this should be my last post to them. It's just blind worhsipping and nothing more so it's not worh it.

--------------------------

Another way looking at things is to look at their H2H. This will show that clearly the likes of Nadal, Djokovic and Murray are far superior to the likes Federer had to face from 2003-2007.
 
H2H in Grand Slam:
Nadal vs Federer:  8-2
Federer vs Djokovic: 6-5
Federer vs Murray: 3-0
 
Overall H2H:
Nadal vs Federer: 18-10
Federer vs Djokovic: 15-12
Federer vs Murray: 8-8
 
I can be even more specific and take it from 2008 only but it doesn’t look pretty.  
 
But you can see that even though Murray has yet to beat Federer in a GS, he has always led the H2H until only yesterday. And if he didn’t have this unique situation going on with the pressure then I believe Murray would have led Federer 2-1 in GS. Fortunately for Nadal, there was no 76 years waiting on him because if it did, then I am now sure how he would have reacted to all this, because I don’t think he likes the pressure all that much either. This shouldn’t be a new flash to you but such pressure in tennis can do you a lot of damages. Mind you, Murray was the 2nd only player to lead the H2H vs Federer so basically there are a lot of grey areas in Federer’s achievements.

I also fail to see what Federer’s supposedly beautiful game has anything to do with the competitive nature of this sport. This does not belong to this argument at all.
 
Now, I’ve never blamed the roof to be the sole cause for Andy’s loss but it made a difference. Murray himself is a good indoor player but that wasn’t the problem. The problem was, he couldn’t adjust the change and got distracted which initiated his loss of concentration. This was his first time Wimbledon final (even Nadal had to play Federer twice at Wimbledon before he could claim a win over him) and the expectations went through the roof just before the final, so he needed to stay focused and single minded, so the change early in the 3rd set definitely played a significant part on Murray’s game. Wasn’t Federer’s fault but did get lucky as a result given the experience he already had playing in CC finals a number of times. When he beat Sampras in their first time meeting on grass back in 2001, despite winning that match, he didn’t win the tournament, but playing in one of the earlier rounds at Wimbledon against Pete definitely opened up the door for him to beat him. Had he met with Sampras in the final instead, I am sure Sampras would have seen a straight set victory over Federer.
 
In a GS final, every single detail matters.
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