Home Search Calendar Help Login Register
Did you miss your activation email?
MurraysWorld Discussions  >  General Community  >  Tennis Talk  >  ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players 1 Member and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 58 59 60 [61] 62 63 64 ... 602 Go Down Reply
Author Topic: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players  (Read 111198 times)
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #900 on: March 18, 2013, 04:20 PM »
Reply

Like blueberryhill, I am of the innocent [of doping] until proven guilty camp.

However, as Gnome points out, I do find it rather odd that Rafa took all that time off and then comes back and immediately begins winning titles - 4 finals and 3 titles since his return.

Personally, I suspect he was better a LONG time before he (or his team, because I do feel he is strongly guided) admitted as such, and that he in fact chose to skip the AO and come back when they felt it was best timed. The constantly shifting narrative from his camp was, this time, tiresome for me. Never had I felt that way before, but this time even I was tired of hearing about the on-going saga of Nadal's knees, etc. It began to feel a little suspect. And in hindsight, and in looking at his obviously altered shots - backhand and serve in particular - I suspect that at least all of December and January and some of February were spent practicing and honing his game. This is somewhat against the rules since injury time out isn't supposed to be time off to improve one's game, so in that sense it's a little irksome. But Nadal is much more ambitious than his humble attitude suggests! He's extremely savvy - I would argue that he is more so than Fed, Nole or Andy combined.

Quite right. He took the time to get the confidence back and his game back on track, practice a few new things etc. His on going 'knee problem' allows him to do this from time to time especially after a beatdown. He's a clever dude and quite ambitious – far more than those three combined, yes. His rituals are a belief system not ODD. Nothing wrong with that though but he's been known as a cheater for quite some time now. He takes too much time in between points despite warnings, he gets on court coaching even when it's strictly against the rules, he tends to intimidate his opponents physically, etc. Not the first one to do it but he’s definitely one of them.
IP Logged
Aileen
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 31,608

Gender: Female
Location: Edinburgh


Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #901 on: March 18, 2013, 04:58 PM »
Reply

That's my take on it too. It's all too easy to accuse the most successful players of doping, but in reality those who've been caught in the past have been lower-ranked anyway. It's noticeable how there's hardly any talk of players ranked below the top 10 of doping. According to the rumour mill, each time Rafa has time off he's serving a 'silent ban' - he'd be a bit stupid to continually take drugs each time he's cleared to come back to the tour. I just don't buy that theory at all.

But what I do think is that his knee injury recovered some time ago but he chose to delay his return to the tour until he was nearly at 100%. Rafa's not had surgery, so it's understandable that his return to form would be quicker than someone like Del Potro. He's also been playing in conditions that are very favourable to him - clay, followed by the best hardcourt for his game.
Like blueberryhill, I am of the innocent [of doping] until proven guilty camp.

However, as Gnome points out, I do find it rather odd that Rafa took all that time off and then comes back and immediately begins winning titles - 4 finals and 3 titles since his return.

Personally, I suspect he was better a LONG time before he (or his team, because I do feel he is strongly guided) admitted as such, and that he in fact chose to skip the AO and come back when they felt it was best timed. The constantly shifting narrative from his camp was, this time, tiresome for me. Never had I felt that way before, but this time even I was tired of hearing about the on-going saga of Nadal's knees, etc. It began to feel a little suspect. And in hindsight, and in looking at his obviously altered shots - backhand and serve in particular - I suspect that at least all of December and January and some of February were spent practicing and honing his game. This is somewhat against the rules since injury time out isn't supposed to be time off to improve one's game, so in that sense it's a little irksome. But Nadal is much more ambitious than his humble attitude suggests! He's extremely savvy - I would argue that he is more so than Fed, Nole or Andy combined.
I don't buy this doping theory either, unless of course it can be proved beyond any shadow of doubt, but I do believe (mainly because Rafa has admitted it) that he was refusing to return to competition until he was sure that he was 100% fit to play.  Now that makes sense and I can accept it, but what I find irritating is the fact that ever since Rafa returned he's constantly come out with statements like how he isn't sure if his knee will hold up, the fact that it's still giving him pain, will he/won't he play IW and Miami, or skip one or both, etc.  Then he turns up and right off wins three consecutive tournaments, one of them a Masters, moving perfectly easily round the court with not even a single wince of pain.  It took Delpo a year to get back to anywhere near where he was before he had his wrist problem, and other players too have spent months battling their way back after injury, so who does he think he's kidding?  Unfortunately the media seem to have fallen for it hook, line and sinker and I'm sick of hearing all the gushing praise that's being bestowed on him.  It'll do wonders for his ego though.

At first I thought he was into some form of gamesmanship, but now I feel very strongly is that (with Uncle Toni in mind) he's simply so desperate to win more Slams and become No.1 again that his prolonged layoff has been partly utilised to perfect his game, with the knee a very convenient get-out when it suits him.  The only wonder is that he's got away with it, so either the ATP are particularly stupid or - and I'm not afraid to say it - certain influential palms have been well greased.
[ Last edit by Aileen March 18, 2013, 05:09 PM ] IP Logged
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #902 on: March 18, 2013, 05:04 PM »
Reply

I don't think ATP is either naive or stupid. They just can't go and order Nadal to get a thorough medical exam on the knees from one of their preferred experts. But most importantly, I don’t think they care. It's good to have Nadal around because it provides more competition and they are more keen on that.
IP Logged
tamila
Challenger Level
**
Posts: 941


Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #903 on: March 18, 2013, 05:25 PM »
Reply

This business of his friendship with the man a IW seems very strange to me but, of course, there is big money involved.  I do not know if any influence can be brought to bear to help him win matches but certainly in the horse and dog world competitors are not allowed to have social contact during competition with anyone connected to the competition.  Obviously there is no reason on earth that he should be friends but it should not affect the competition.  My feeling is that the ATP are not very effective at least not as much as the WTA.  The WTA seems to look after the women better that the ATP does the men.
IP Logged
teejay1
Top Seed
*****
Posts: 5,167



Courage doesn't always roar - but wins Wimbledon

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #904 on: March 18, 2013, 06:32 PM »
Reply

I have to be really honest. Rafa has been back for five minutes and I'm sick to the back teeth with him already. No, to be fair, that needs some qualification. I like Rafa, sort of, but what is getting on my nerves is commentators who feel the need to practically wee themselves every time he wins a point. I really thought Petch was going to burst a blood vessel last night. The word sychophant sprang to mind more than once, even before Nadal got any sort of grip on the match. I had to smile when Petch and Fleming were talking about how 'everyone' has missed Rafa while he's been away. Fleming said, in that way of his that makes him sound like he's been sniffing something, 'well, who hasn't missed him?!'. I couldn't be the only one who yelled 'ME!' at the TV.

As for Nadal's knees, I don't know what to think. I believe very strongly in innocent until proven guilty when it comes to allegations of doping, because it is a serious issue. That said, I feel uncomfortable about something. I just can't put my finger on what it is that doesn't feel right. In the early clay matches Nadal did look a step slow, which is understandable given how long he was out, but I can't say that he seemed to have difficulty moving as such, if that makes sense. Now though, he's moving like he's never been away, although I don't buy the idea from Petch that he's playing better now than he was before. Personally I think Petch needs to lie down in a dark room and get over it already.

I think there is something to be said for the idea that he spent some of the time he was off working on his game. The mixed messages his team were sending out about the nature of his knee problem would probably fit in with that. The thing is, what can be done about that? I suppose a player is entitled to come back when, and only when, they are fit to play. The thing is though, if Nadal was working on some elements of his game he should say so. I don't expect him to tell us what he's been working on any more than I expect Andy and Lendl to say what they work on, but a simple 'once the knee was better I spent some time working on my game' would do. It would at least be honest, which is clearly more than can be said for some of the utter bull that has been spouted in recent months.

What does get on my nerves is Nadal's flagrant disregard of the rules of the sport and the sport's attitude towards it. He was clearly being coached the other day, and got warned for it, fair enough. What angered me was the commentators and pundits falling over themselves to play it down, doing the 'I've done it' and 'a fine is worth it' line. I understood that the ATP rules clearly say that players should not be coached during matches, and that should, in my mind, apply to all of them. Nadal has been doing it for years though, so I don't see it changing. One rule for some, and another rule for others, or so it seems.

As for Indian Wells, I'm sorry, but I do smell a rat. Taking out the fact that Rafa won for a second, how is it considered remotely acceptable that a player should be able to stay with a tournament owner during the tournament they own? What on earth is the ATP thinking? At the very least that sets Larry Ellison up for suggestions of bias, not that he looks like he would remotely care. I suspect that all the ATP would be bothered about is the amount of money Ellison spends on the tournament. So much for the integrity of the sport.

IP Logged
Tessie
ATP Level
***
Posts: 1,835

Gender: Female
Location: The South


Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #905 on: March 18, 2013, 07:02 PM »
Reply

I have to be really honest. Rafa has been back for five minutes and I'm sick to the back teeth with him already. No, to be fair, that needs some qualification. I like Rafa, sort of, but what is getting on my nerves is commentators who feel the need to practically wee themselves every time he wins a point. I really thought Petch was going to burst a blood vessel last night. The word sychophant sprang to mind more than once, even before Nadal got any sort of grip on the match. I had to smile when Petch and Fleming were talking about how 'everyone' has missed Rafa while he's been away. Fleming said, in that way of his that makes him sound like he's been sniffing something, 'well, who hasn't missed him?!'. I couldn't be the only one who yelled 'ME!' at the TV.


No Teejay, I was doing it too.  Was quite nuetral when the match started but by the end I was desparate for Del Po to win even though he knocked Andy out because Nadals "look at me I,m good" body language gets on my nerves and so does the fawning over him by the comms, its seems if Feds not around they need a substitute.

IP Logged
Aileen
Murraymaniac
**********
Posts: 31,608

Gender: Female
Location: Edinburgh


Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #906 on: March 18, 2013, 07:16 PM »
Reply

I have to be really honest. Rafa has been back for five minutes and I'm sick to the back teeth with him already. No, to be fair, that needs some qualification. I like Rafa, sort of, but what is getting on my nerves is commentators who feel the need to practically wee themselves every time he wins a point. I really thought Petch was going to burst a blood vessel last night. The word sychophant sprang to mind more than once, even before Nadal got any sort of grip on the match. I had to smile when Petch and Fleming were talking about how 'everyone' has missed Rafa while he's been away. Fleming said, in that way of his that makes him sound like he's been sniffing something, 'well, who hasn't missed him?!'. I couldn't be the only one who yelled 'ME!' at the TV.

As for Nadal's knees, I don't know what to think. I believe very strongly in innocent until proven guilty when it comes to allegations of doping, because it is a serious issue. That said, I feel uncomfortable about something. I just can't put my finger on what it is that doesn't feel right. In the early clay matches Nadal did look a step slow, which is understandable given how long he was out, but I can't say that he seemed to have difficulty moving as such, if that makes sense. Now though, he's moving like he's never been away, although I don't buy the idea from Petch that he's playing better now than he was before. Personally I think Petch needs to lie down in a dark room and get over it already.

I think there is something to be said for the idea that he spent some of the time he was off working on his game. The mixed messages his team were sending out about the nature of his knee problem would probably fit in with that. The thing is, what can be done about that? I suppose a player is entitled to come back when, and only when, they are fit to play. The thing is though, if Nadal was working on some elements of his game he should say so. I don't expect him to tell us what he's been working on any more than I expect Andy and Lendl to say what they work on, but a simple 'once the knee was better I spent some time working on my game' would do. It would at least be honest, which is clearly more than can be said for some of the utter bull that has been spouted in recent months.

What does get on my nerves is Nadal's flagrant disregard of the rules of the sport and the sport's attitude towards it. He was clearly being coached the other day, and got warned for it, fair enough. What angered me was the commentators and pundits falling over themselves to play it down, doing the 'I've done it' and 'a fine is worth it' line. I understood that the ATP rules clearly say that players should not be coached during matches, and that should, in my mind, apply to all of them. Nadal has been doing it for years though, so I don't see it changing. One rule for some, and another rule for others, or so it seems.

As for Indian Wells, I'm sorry, but I do smell a rat. Taking out the fact that Rafa won for a second, how is it considered remotely acceptable that a player should be able to stay with a tournament owner during the tournament they own? What on earth is the ATP thinking? At the very least that sets Larry Ellison up for suggestions of bias, not that he looks like he would remotely care. I suspect that all the ATP would be bothered about is the amount of money Ellison spends on the tournament. So much for the integrity of the sport.
Good posting!  I didn't know until now that Rafa stayed with the tournie owner.  Whether this was done in innocence or not, it certainly wasn't a wise idea and sends out a totally wrong message.

I must admit that I have no complaints about Robbie Koenig, who is usually very fair and understated anyway, but his American co-commentator was something else.  I swear I heard the saliva dripping as he drooled over Rafa's shots during the final.  I think it was the same one who also commentated on the Brazil final and who, at one point cooed "I think I have run out of superlatives here" so euphoric was he at Rafa's brilliance in overcoming his visibly nervous opponent who was spraying UEs all over the place.

Like you, I have no objection to Rafa using some of his injury lay-off time to get back to 100% fitness, but the covert way in which this was done smacks of deceit, and that's what makes me so angry.  We even got some bullsh*t about him playing golf being 'therapeutic'.  Well as any golfer will tell you, it's murder on the knees and therefore not the sort of thing to help a knee injury heal, especially one as serious as Rafa's was alleged to be (the precise injury taking at least three different forms).

Meanwhile Andy works his butt off in his hunt for another Slam title and gets precious little recognition for it.  Instead he gets criticised for not playing a tournament before IW. Well that was his choice and he was prepared to stand or fall by it, but at least he made his decision very plain right after the AO and stuck to it.

P.S. - I too was willing Delpo to win.  Not only did Rafa's arrogant strutting really get up my nose, as well as his OCD habits, but I know what it has taken Delpo to get back to near where he was at the end of 2009.  In my book he deserved to win, and might well have done had it not been for his exertions against Djokovic. 





[ Last edit by Aileen March 18, 2013, 07:25 PM ] IP Logged
DaveH
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 206



Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #907 on: March 18, 2013, 07:17 PM »
Reply

I don't think he did. He took crystal meth, which is a recreational drug that couldn't possibly help his game.

You're right. I didn't know it was meth.
IP Logged
teejay1
Top Seed
*****
Posts: 5,167



Courage doesn't always roar - but wins Wimbledon

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #908 on: March 18, 2013, 07:28 PM »
Reply


Meanwhile Andy works his butt off in his hunt for another Slam title and gets precious little recognition for it.  Instead he gets criticised for not playing a tournament before IW.  Well that was his choice and he was prepared to stand or fall by it, but at least he made his decision very plain right after the AO and stuck to it.





I couldn't agree more. Since Rafa came back what Andy did last year has been forgotten. Still, that could work to Andy's advantage in that the comms won't be tutting and demanding he wins another immediately. Let them all gush over Rafa. It's gross, but fine.

I think Andy made a mature decision to play nothing between the AO and IW. I think we'll see the benefits of that later in the year, right around the time Nadal is 'resting his knees' again.

I think Andy knew something would have to give if he was to take that time out after the AO, and it was wise that it was IW, because he hadn't done well there for the last couple of years, so he had nothing to defend. The irony is that he took that time  out and came back and got himself into the quarter finals at IW, so the decision was worth it if you ask me, and as you say, he made a decision and stuck with it, which shows he knows his own mind and is mature enough to deal with it. I like that.
IP Logged
DaveH
Satellite Level
**
Posts: 206



Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #909 on: March 18, 2013, 07:29 PM »
Reply

Nadal purportedly has a major problem with his knee joints. That problem in anyone else would stop them playing sport.

Dennis Compton had a problem with his knee joints. He played cricket and football into his late thirties. Kevin Pietersen has a knee problem. He has not had to retire from cricket.


Quote
if his knees are are bad as he and his team say he would not be able to compete at all,  much less at the level he does.

According to expert medical opinion or just what you feel in your bones?

Quote
He went through the same ritual of touching his face, and other body parts, before serving every time. If that's not indicative of some form of mental health issue I don't know what is.

Sporting rituals may be odd but they are not signs of OCD. If he shows symptoms off court, that is another matter. Competitively, Nadal is mentally stronger than anyone except Djokovic. He hardly seems to be falling apart. This has nothing to do with drugs anyway.




Quote
please let's not delude ourselves too much.

Right. You don't have anything on Nadal except the fact he was injured and came back from it.

Just as a viewer couldn't tell who was doping in cycling, the same goes for tennis. Suspecting Lance Armstrong or anyone else would have been based on nothing. It is up to the administrators of the game to make sure testing is thorough.
IP Logged
Emma Jean
Veteran
******
Posts: 8,961

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada


We will be Victorious

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #910 on: March 18, 2013, 07:41 PM »
Reply


As for Indian Wells, I'm sorry, but I do smell a rat. Taking out the fact that Rafa won for a second, how is it considered remotely acceptable that a player should be able to stay with a tournament owner during the tournament they own? What on earth is the ATP thinking? At the very least that sets Larry Ellison up for suggestions of bias, not that he looks like he would remotely care. I suspect that all the ATP would be bothered about is the amount of money Ellison spends on the tournament. So much for the integrity of the sport.


IW surface being so slow and Nadal staying at the owner's house didn't make me feel any comfortable at any point of the tournament to be honest.
IP Logged
scotnadian
World No 1
*******
Posts: 11,205

Gender: Female
Location: Toronto, Canada (ex Aberdeen, Scotland)


You (still) ain't seen nothing yet..

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #911 on: March 18, 2013, 07:52 PM »
Reply

Some pretty hot and heavy allegations going on here.  shocking
IP Logged
Fiverings
ATP Level
***
Posts: 1,793

Gender: Male
Location: Ayrshire


Andy Murray - Tennis Legend

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #912 on: March 18, 2013, 08:46 PM »
Reply

IW surface being so slow and Nadal staying at the owner's house didn't make me feel any comfortable at any point of the tournament to be honest.
  No indeed, nor the variable standards on time penalties
IP Logged
Littlebuddha
Seed
****
Posts: 3,351


Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #913 on: March 18, 2013, 08:47 PM »
Reply

I agree when warned about his time between points he just ignored it.
IP Logged
Katie
ATP Level
*
Posts: 2,651



Andy Murray - US Open and Wimbledon champion! :)

Re: ATP/WTA Tour - The Other Players « Reply #914 on: March 18, 2013, 08:55 PM »
Reply

It'll be interesting if umpires ever take the time penalty warnings a stage forward to point penalties - I somehow doubt they will. Also, in Rafa's case they need to tighten up the time he takes to warm up before matches - he takes far too long.
IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 58 59 60 [61] 62 63 64 ... 602 Go Up Reply 
« previous next »