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Doping in Tennis ?

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Aileen
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #330 on: September 29, 2013, 12:29 AM »
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I don't think Nadal is doping, I think he's just upped his training regimes in many areas to strengthen his game. Nadal's always had thissort of play in him, he just never used it to its 100% potential.
Fair enough, but if he was using some of his time out to hone his skills, then why didn't he say so?  There's no shame in a player doing that, but there is shame when a player does so while pretending he's still recovering from injury

Maybe something to do with a protected ranking which applies only to players who have been out with injury for six months?  I'm sure a little palm-greasing by Uncle Toni, who I wouldn't trust to post a letter, would ensure that the appropriate medical reports were produced.
[ Last edit by Aileen September 29, 2013, 12:42 AM ] IP Logged
Connor
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #331 on: September 29, 2013, 12:33 AM »
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Fair enough, but if he was using some of his time out to hone his skills, then why didn't he say so?  There's no shame in a player doing that, but there is shame when a player does so while pretending he's still recovering from injury.

Maybe something to do with a protected ranking which applies only to players who have been out with injury for six months?  I'm sure a little palm-greasing by Uncle Toni, who I wouldn't trust to post a letter, would ensure that the appropriate medical reports were produced.

Yeah I don't like Toni, I think maybe the injury story was weaved up by him and he made Rafa follow it line by line. Toni strikes me as the control freak like coach, just with a bitter, arrogant edge.
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Aileen
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #332 on: September 29, 2013, 12:40 AM »
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Yeah I don't like Toni, I think maybe the injury story was weaved up by him and he made Rafa follow it line by line. Toni strikes me as the control freak like coach, just with a bitter, arrogant edge.
Exactly.  Which is probably why Nadal suffers from OCD.  He's a screwed-up psychological wreck.   I'm sure though that the injury was genuine initially but that Toni decided to drag it out as long as possible to satisfy his own overweening ambitions, hence the vague and conflicting reports about it which emanated from the Nadal camp.  I could be wrong, but I don't recall Nadal himself saying anything direct about it.  Toni was always his spokesman.
[ Last edit by Aileen September 29, 2013, 12:50 AM ] IP Logged
ProdigyEng
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #333 on: September 29, 2013, 12:51 AM »
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Uncle toni is the best coach in tennis history.
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tamila
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #334 on: September 29, 2013, 06:12 AM »
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I have had my doubts about Nadal for a long time but recently they have become stronger.  There are more and more questions being asked about his 'miraculous' comeback from a knee injury.  These questions have been asked in the past but there are even more this time.  As for Andy and his thoughts on Nadal, I am sure he would not voice them whatever they are as it would be so unprofessional without evidence.  As for Uncle Toni, I have no respect for him after reading the book.  Nadal's family just seem to have the poor lad right under their thumbs.  His OCD is so excessive that something must be going on.
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blueberryhill
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #335 on: September 29, 2013, 06:41 AM »
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Aileen @ 12.3am
Completely agree.
I was shocked when I read what Rafa said about Uncle T. and how he had treated him  when he was a little boy. No wonder Rafa is so full of nervous tics. It's never a good idea for family members to be involved in coaching and the other examples of this are legion.
The man is nothing but a bully and I wouldn't ever believe a word he said.
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #336 on: September 29, 2013, 06:51 AM »
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You think Andy would be so loyal to Rafa that he would turn a blind eye to him doping?

To be honest, why are Andy's thoughts about Rafa completely irrelevant to you?

And, why are you now deciding to sit on the fence?

1) Just to clarify I am not sitting on the fence in any shape or form. I am still of the opinion that eventually Nadal will be outed as a doper. Ditto Ferrer, and probably Djokovic as well.
2) I am still of the opinion that the doping controls in tennis are a complete joke.
3) Murray's thoughts on Nadal are irrelevant in the sense I can't make any judgements about what he thinks or doesn't think about Nadal, or what his relationship with him actually is. The public persona of how he appears to relate to Nadal might be actually how he relates or it might be the complete opposite. Neither me, nor anyone here can actutally know. Look at how little we actually know about what his back injury actually is.   Some people will accept/support their friends regardless of what they do. We know from Murray's reaction to Ross H that he is an incredibly loyal friend. He might know that Nadal is doping, but equally know that he is being forced into it by the infamous Uncle Tony. It would all be complete spectulation.
4) What I do think is that Doping in tennis is undoubtedly an open secret amongst the players. If Murray knows that Nadal and co are doping and not speaking out about it - does that make him a bad person, or to quote Elena using my own words "an ostrich" ?

Given the abuse I have got on Murray's World for suggesting tennis might not be a clean sport, I think it would be totally understandable why he is not putting his head above the parapet. Whistleblowers don't generally have an easy time of it in any walk of life. His position would rapidly become completely untenable. History would suggest that.  (Note for the avoidance of any doubt I am not suggesting I am a whistleblower, my conclusions are based simply on what I have seen and read).   Look at what happened to people who spoke out in cycling. I have a great deal of respect for Murray for speaking out about Cilic. His comment was completely unequivocal. I notice that Murray is speaking out on the subject more and more. I rather think he is doing what he can. Let's also not forget that Murray knows exactly the consequences of comments he makes being misinterpretated. No wonder he might be wary of speaking out.

I do find it interesting how his recent behaviour, from inviting the press to see him training, to posting pictures of himself in a hospital bed, could be interpretated as him saying "this is why I am so strong physically, this is why I have the endurance for this long matches, yes I am actually injured not on a silent ban". The corrollary of that might be "I am not doping, and this is the evidence, but others might be". Djokovic and Nadal are not exactly open books about their training regimes and injuries are they?

To sum up, nothing I have seen or read since I started following tennis a couple of years ago has persuaded me that tennis is a clean sport.  I think more and more the mainstream press are suggesting it is not. For reasons I have repeatedly outlined I personally do not think Nadal, Ferrer and Djokovic are clean athletes. That is my personal opinion.

Do I think that Murray would be so loyal to Nadal that he would turn a
blind eye to him doping? Yes there are certain situations whereby I could see that happening.

Now let's address the unthinkable. If as a certain internet site would suggest that they are all at it, including Murray and it came out that he along with the others was doping. How would I personally feel?

My answer to that is quite simple - I would feel let down and upset, not too mention feeling a complete Pillock for supporting him. However and this is the caveat, I might also understand why. If he knew that the top players around him were all at it, and were better than him by virtue of it, at the same time that he was constantly getting crucified in the press and in places like this  (re read some of the match threads and reports), for not wining his Grand Slam or being the best. Could I actually blame him? Realistically and honestly no. As a fan wanting him to win, you could argue that I would need to take some of the responsibility as well.

I have outlined why I don't think Murray is a doper. I stand by that view. I think all that we have seen of him would suggests that he is too honest, too straight, has too much integrity to go down that route. I suspect that a victory won by dishonest means, would be no victory to him. Not too mention the fact that guile doesn't seem to feature highly in his make up. We all can tell fairly instantly when he comes out on the court what sort of mood he is in. He appears to be something of an open book.  If that's me being niave then I am guilty as charged.

Once again I have done my best to respond, and will undoubtedly get villified for it. I am however at least in the right thread this time, which could be deemed as progress...!!!
[ Last edit by Masaka September 29, 2013, 07:54 AM ] IP Logged
Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #337 on: September 29, 2013, 07:12 AM »
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I have had my doubts about Nadal for a long time but recently they have become stronger.  There are more and more questions being asked about his 'miraculous' comeback from a knee injury.  These questions have been asked in the past but there are even more this time.  As for Andy and his thoughts on Nadal, I am sure he would not voice them whatever they are as it would be so unprofessional without evidence.  As for Uncle Toni, I have no respect for him after reading the book.  Nadal's family just seem to have the poor lad right under their thumbs.  His OCD is so excessive that something must be going on.

I once again can only say I agree with you in all of your points. What Murray is saying publicly might well be completely different to what he is saying privately. Can people actually imagine what the consequences would be if Murray if he came out and openly accused Nadal of doping? I doubt he would ever play another match, because in doing so he would also be stating that the tennis authorities were complicit in what is going on. He would get crucified.  I also said way back that whatever is or isn't going on with Nadal I would imagine Uncle Tony is the driving force.

It is going to be interesting what happens when the current crop retire, although I would hope that any major revelations happened before that. I am also wondering if Nadal starts to threaten Federer's records, whether Federer might be prompted to start speaking out?
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Caz
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #338 on: September 29, 2013, 09:54 AM »
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Masaka @ 6.51 am.......Good post! My feelings exactly about Nadal though I would disagree about Djokovic ......for now anyway. I'd be very disappointed if it came to light that he wasn't clean! Perhaps we'll never know who's cheating and who isn't, but I feel in my heart that both Andy and Federer [much as I don't like him] are clean!
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #339 on: September 29, 2013, 10:17 AM »
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Masaka @ 6.51 am.......Good post! My feelings exactly about Nadal though I would disagree about Djokovic ......for now anyway. I'd be very disappointed if it came to light that he wasn't clean! Perhaps we'll never know who's cheating and who isn't, but I feel in my heart that both Andy and Federer [much as I don't like him] are clean!

I thought Djokovic was a cert, but some doubts are creeping in about him. I do think that he is aware of the health implications, and if he is/was I think he is selective about how and when. Unlike Nadal whose every action does seem to be directed by external forces, ie Uncle Toni.  Nadal actually saddens me. He doesn't come over as a happy and contented young man. I am about to read his biography, but from what people are saying it is an unhappy read.

There are many positives about Djokovic - not least of which he is a good loser.  You also see some of what he is and has been brought up to be, from his parents reactions to Murray beating their son at Wimbledon. They and him must have been bitterly disappointed by his loss to Murray, but their reaction was pure class.

Suffice to say that Djokovic v Nadal I will be supporting Djokovic every time.
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Fiverings
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #340 on: September 29, 2013, 10:21 AM »
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Just to add my support to Masakas thoughtful posts - while I do not necessarily believe beyond doubt that Nadal and others are enhancing their performance in illegal ways, there are valid questions about performance and injury patterns that are worthy of examination. As to Andy's attitude towards other players - its not in his job, or in his interest, to be judge and jury of his peers in public, no matter what evidence he himself may have on an issue. That is for others to act on - he can only comment once issues are in the public domain, and he has done.
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jillypops
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #341 on: September 29, 2013, 10:24 AM »
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It is going to be interesting what happens when the current crop retire, although I would hope that any major revelations happened before that. I am also wondering if Nadal starts to threaten Federer's records, whether Federer might be prompted to start speaking out?


I think you make some good points Masaka,
I still go back to a point I made ages ago, that when Nadal was reportedly suppose to be training, he had an old AO towel, wrapped round him, now I know this doesn't mean much, but to me it looked as though an old photo was used.
In regards to whether Andy has his suspiscions  about other players I don't think for 1 minute while he was playing he would voice those opinions, but because Roger has so quickly gone down the rankings which must rankle with him, I think if he was to retire he might well speak out about doping in the Sport.
I must admit I do sit on the fence a bit on this subject, I have followed tennis for such a long time, it would sadden me to think the sport wasn't clean, but I suppose time will tell.













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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #342 on: September 29, 2013, 11:27 AM »
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I still go back to a point I made ages ago, that when Nadal was reportedly suppose to be training, he had an old AO towel, wrapped round him, now I know this doesn't mean much, but to me it looked as though an old photo was used.

[\quote]

I was unaware of that. Equally however he was seen playing golf, which I believe is meant to be hard on the knees.

One of the most damning pieces of evidence if you can call it that is simply the photos of him going back on his heels after wining his first tournament back. If he genuinely had knee problems he wouldn't have been able to do that. He would have been taking action to save and protect his knees surely, rather like we have seen changes in Murray's behaviour to protect his back. It just doesn't add up to me.  My opinion.














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althusser
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #343 on: September 29, 2013, 11:29 AM »
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the way Andy spoke of Rafa 'legend' after USO did make me think of those who refer to Jesus as a 'legend' meaning either he did not exist, or. crucially, he  if he existed the popular stories about him are not necessarily true,

I doubt Andy was being cryptic though
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blueberryhill
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #344 on: September 29, 2013, 01:09 PM »
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"Legend" is one of those words that's changed it's meaning, or at least has two meanings now.
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