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Doping in Tennis ?

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Fiverings
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #600 on: February 08, 2014, 04:49 PM »
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Sorry, Dani did not make myself clear. Not from different places, it's the countries from which they come.

Many South African whites and Swiss nationals share the same attributes - excessive arrogance. This is therefore inbred within Federer
   Ooh that a a dangerous generalisation OSS. Unfortunately it may be a lot simpler - genius and arrogance are often combined. Often its an exalted sense of self-worth encouraged by flatterers and hangers-on, and the inability to tolerate criticism or accept defeat. Many of the most powerful people in history have had this trait which is close to psychopathic. But it usually ends in crushing humiliation.
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Connor
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #601 on: February 08, 2014, 04:50 PM »
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Sorry, Dani did not make myself clear. Not from different places, it's the countries from which they come.

Many South African whites and Swiss nationals share the same attributes - excessive arrogance. This is therefore inbred within Federer

Pretty strong statement there, do you have anything to back it up?
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janetx
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #602 on: February 08, 2014, 05:01 PM »
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Let's do a simple de-construct:
Surely "Mugerer" is a simple spelling error and the poster must mean "Muggerer"? Possibly Fed has a history of street violence and pick pocketing, which the cunning authorities have kept hidden from most of us.
As for "Frauderer" well Fed will soon have an extra mouth to feed, so has probably been avoiding tax payments like crazy and putting the money into future securities like  Rolex watches, gold handbags, cows etc. 
Or is it a reference to his having won most of his slams in a supposedly "weak era"?
Who can tell?  Think
 

 lmao Good posting!
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Aileen
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #603 on: February 08, 2014, 08:33 PM »
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@ Fiverings. I hope it's not as bad as all that. I was responding more to Prodigies assertion that if one is at it they all must be. If Murray is part of that all, he must be considered as well. I have explained several times on this and other threads why I don't think he is a doper.

Personally I love a good conspiracy theory, the difference being whilst I might enjoy them, there are very few I actually believe.

I think with Nadal the issue is that there is so much that simply doesn't add up. If he isn't a doper then he is doing a very good impression of one. It is now known that the cycling authorities were complicit in Armstrong getting away with it for so long. Given the general toothlessness of the tennis authorities on lots of issues i.e. Medical Time outs, time between points, letting Federer or Janowicz win over their tantrums about roofs and such like, I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility that they are equally toothless on this subject. Federer himself has said just how few dope tests he has had. With regard to Nadal, given their respective H2H any comments from Federer would be assumed to be sour grapes on his part. Whistleblowers traditionally have a really tough time. I suspect that Federer is not that courageous.

Given the amount of money sloshing around in tennis it would not surprise me in the slightest to find the tennis authorities are complicit in cover ups to protect their brand. Not so much a conspiracy theory, more a theory that could explain the current situation regarding doping in tennis. Note the use of the word could - not does. It is as valid an explanation, in the light of what we now know about what happened in cycling as any other.

Are all the top 10, top 20, top 50, top 100 full blown druggies. Highly unlikely. It is however equally highly unlikely in my opinion that they are all clean. We can extrapolate that from other sports. We also know as a fact that some are doping Troiki and Cillic being the most recent examples of that. There are plenty of others over the years. We also know that the ITF did their damnedest to cover those failed tests up with spurious excuses about false injuries.... And so we come full circle back to Nadal....!!!
Good posting!

I think Djokovic may have been up to something in the past, but not now.  I'm not entirely convinced that the story about Serbia winning the DC was the catalyst for his amazing ascent to No.1 in 2011.  No doubt it boosted his confidence, and no doubt his new gluten-free diet helped him too, but, as with Nadal, it all sounded too sudden and too good to be true.  Also Djokovic and the Egg (sounds like a fairy tale that!) has never been satisfactorily explained.   He claimed he only used it twice, yet it was known at the time that he had 'a friend' in the US who had one, from which one can presumably conclude that he possibly had 'friends' in other countries as well.  I do believe his story though that he himself never owned one because, as he said, it was far too big and heavy and take on board an airplane.

Ferrer probably is clean but just happens to be one of these people who have an abundance of natural energy, and he isn't the only older player to have enjoyed a new lease of life anyway, so if he's now 'on' or 'doing' something then surely it's fair to assume that the like of Haas and Robredo are the same?     
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #604 on: February 08, 2014, 09:12 PM »
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Good posting!

I think Djokovic may have been up to something in the past, but not now.  I'm not entirely convinced that the story about Serbia winning the DC was the catalyst for his amazing ascent to No.1 in 2011.  No doubt it boosted his confidence, and no doubt his new gluten-free diet helped him too, but, as with Nadal, it all sounded too sudden and too good to be true.  Also Djokovic and the Egg (sounds like a fairy tale that!) has never been satisfactorily explained.   He claimed he only used it twice, yet it was known at the time that he had 'a friend' in the US who had one, from which one can presumably conclude that he possibly had 'friends' in other countries as well.  I do believe his story though that he himself never owned one because, as he said, it was far too big and heavy and take on board an airplane.

Ferrer probably is clean but just happens to be one of these people who have an abundance of natural energy, and he isn't the only older player to have enjoyed a new lease of life anyway, so if he's now 'on' or 'doing' something then surely it's fair to assume that the like of Haas and Robredo are the same?     

My feelings about Djokovic are that he is selective about his use of chemical assistance and is mindful of the long term health implications. Unlike Nadal -whose minders give the impression of not caring about him at all, as long as their cash cow keeps providing the dosh does it matter if he drops dead of heart failure when he retires.

I am interested in your perception of Ferrer as clean. I am inherently suspicious of any Spanish athlete given the unresolved business of the blood bags and the doping doctor.

Nadal I have no doubts about at all, the others I am slightly more open minded about, but only slightly.

Lance Armstrong was eventually caught. I remain optimistic that someone, somewhere, sometime will rat on Nadal.
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Aileen
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #605 on: February 08, 2014, 09:24 PM »
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My feelings about Djokovic are that he is selective about his use of chemical assistance and is mindful of the long term health implications. Unlike Nadal -whose minders give the impression of not caring about him at all, as long as their cash cow keeps providing the dosh does it matter if he drops dead of heart failure when he retires.

I am interested in your perception of Ferrer as clean. I am inherently suspicious of any Spanish athlete given the unresolved business of the blood bags and the doping doctor.

Nadal I have no doubts about at all, the others I am slightly more open minded about, but only slightly.

Lance Armstrong was eventually caught. I remain optimistic that someone, somewhere, sometime will rat on Nadal.
In some ways I do feel sorry for Nadal because, as you say, he's completely at the mercy of his Uncle Toni and goodness knows who else, which could explain his worsening OCDs.   I'm sure he can't feel very comfortable about having to live a lie all the time, and, in the end of the day, if he is caught, which I would hope is going to happen sooner rather than later, and certainly before his career ends, he's the one who'll take the rap.  However it's a well-known fact that even the best deceivers will at some point get tangled up with their own lies and expose themselves for the despicable cheats they really are, so it's possible that that could happen to Nadal.
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ProdigyEng
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #606 on: February 08, 2014, 09:24 PM »
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Facepalm at this whole thread.
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #607 on: February 08, 2014, 09:35 PM »
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Facepalm at this whole thread.

Not sure why, as it is a valid discussion. I feel fairly certain the cycling fan sites must have had similar debates with reference to Lance "I have never failed a drugs test" Armstrong, with the doubters being ridiculed as conspiracy theorists, spoil sports or nutters.

Time will tell. As far as I am concerned my over riding reason for questioning Nadal is that to me the whole saga stinks to high heaven. It doesn't smell right, feel right, or look right to me. Generally speaking my gut instinct is usually proved right, so I am inclined to trust it.

However each to their own opinion. You don't truly believe in the on running farce of Nadal and his knees do you?
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Fiverings
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #608 on: February 08, 2014, 09:52 PM »
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Not sure why, as it is a valid discussion. I feel fairly certain the cycling fan sites must have had similar debates with reference to Lance "I have never failed a drugs test" Armstrong, with the doubters being ridiculed as conspiracy theorists, spoil sports or nutters.

Time will tell. As far as I am concerned my over riding reason for questioning Nadal is that to me the whole saga stinks to high heaven. It doesn't smell right, feel right, or look right to me. Generally speaking my gut instinct is usually proved right, so I am inclined to trust it.

However each to their own opinion. You don't truly believe in the on running farce of Nadal and his knees do you?
   i have a lot of sympathy for your views Masaka - it certainly looks as though something ain't right, and the cracks are beginning to open up in Rafa's life. My fascination is how he has managed to hold it together for so long. Tennis is an extremely complex sport in all areas, skill, physicality, intellect and psychology on an individual basis - I don't really understand how PEDs can  augment that on an ongoing basis at such a high level.  But I love Aileen's fairytale "Djokovic and the Egg" , maybe we could have "Rafa and the Magic Beans", or "Roger and the Seventeen Slams"?  Can't think of a decent one for Andy but someone out there will, I'm sure. Andy and the (other) Three Players perhaps?
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #609 on: February 09, 2014, 11:17 AM »
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My feelings about Djokovic are that he is selective about his use of chemical assistance and is mindful of the long term health implications. Unlike Nadal -whose minders give the impression of not caring about him at all, as long as their cash cow keeps providing the dosh does it matter if he drops dead of heart failure when he retires.

I am interested in your perception of Ferrer as clean. I am inherently suspicious of any Spanish athlete given the unresolved business of the blood bags and the doping doctor.

Nadal I have no doubts about at all, the others I am slightly more open minded about, but only slightly.

Lance Armstrong was eventually caught. I remain optimistic that someone, somewhere, sometime will rat on Nadal.
My feelings on Djokovic are that he may at some time have been using some kind of 'assistance' but probably because of the health implications and the introduction of passports has decided not to continue.  As far as Nadal is concerned I think he is so much under the thumb of his family, particularly Uncle Toni, that he is probably doing PEDs.  More and more hints are being aired in the press and on the internet every time he has time off and seems to come back so quickly.  It does smack of 'cycling'.
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OldScotSupport
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #610 on: February 09, 2014, 11:40 AM »
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Pretty strong statement there, do you have anything to back it up?

I'm talking mainly in a business context.

In the past, I have spent considerable time in Switzerland, where I met with many Swiss nationals and South Africans. At these times, I had excellent relationships with these people on a one-to-one basis, but I was fully aware of their over confident attitude tending strongly towards arrogance.

Yes, I admit it's a strong sweeping statement, but you have to spend time with these people to appreciate my comments. Difficult to back them up, but I stand by my opinion. 
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The Gnome
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #611 on: February 10, 2014, 07:05 PM »
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I subscribe to the old adage "innocent until proven guilty" throwing accusations around, reminding us all that things don't add up or you have a feeling in your water is nothing more than rancid suspicion.

This thread is nothing more than a conspiracy theorists wet dream, i think people should put aside their tin foil hats and wait to see what, if anything, unfolds in the future
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #612 on: February 10, 2014, 07:13 PM »
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I subscribe to the old adage "innocent until proven guilty" throwing accusations around, reminding us all that things don't add up or you have a feeling in your water is nothing more than rancid suspicion.

This thread is nothing more than a conspiracy theorists wet dream, i think people should put aside their tin foil hats and wait to see what, if anything, unfolds in the future

I disagree with you. I think we are at the point with Nadal whereby the situation has moved from the level of wild conspiracy theories, to the interpretation some people including myself, are placing on Nadal's odd behaviour being within the bounds of reasonable - albeit unproven suspicion.
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The Gnome
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #613 on: February 10, 2014, 07:23 PM »
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I disagree with you. I think we are at the point with Nadal whereby the situation has moved from the level of wild conspiracy theories, to the interpretation some people including myself, are placing on Nadal's odd behaviour being within the bounds of reasonable - albeit unproven suspicion.

That's not the point, wether you agree with me or not, you and others spend far too much time concerned with it. This thread is just swings and roundabouts, the same stuff repeated over and over again, if Rafa wins an event it's because he's doping, if he pulls out injured he's faking.

The only thing that concerns me is his flaunting of tennis rules, that is something that can be dealt with.

Where exactly is this thread going? what is the point of it now? we know you and others think he is a doping faking cheat. That's fine, but why repeat it over and over again? we get it, the message is clear.

The day i wake up and read the news that he has been doping for the last 10 years then 2 things will happen, 1) i will be very dissapointed 2) the people who have banged on about it for the last god knows how many years will flood forums such as this with "I told you so's"

Until that day happens, i can't help but feel that people are wasting a lot of their energy wondering about something thay cannot 100% prove to be fact
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Masaka
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #614 on: February 10, 2014, 07:54 PM »
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@Gnome

It is your opinion that me and others spend too much time concerned with it. My opinion is it is a valid use of my time, given it is my time surely it's up to me how I spend it?

Where is this thread going? What is the point of it?

To keep the subject in people's minds, surely it is in all our interests to have the sport we follow a clean one?  What's the old adage "Evil can flourish, when good men do nothing". Cycling tried to stifle debate on this subject, and decry the doubters as conspiracy theorists. 

Personally why do I keep on harping on about it? because I believe that if enough people start to question the situation them the authorities might eventually start to listen, and things might change. To an extent this is happening, the vocalisations about the inadequacies of the testing regime in professional tennis, have forced the authorities to improve it.

If Andy Murray hadn't spoken publicly about Cillic would he have just been off the tour with his fake injury, with non of the great unwashed i.e. the fans, any the wiser?

I might well be wasting a lot of energy in wondering about something I can't prove to be fact - equally it's my energy to waste. It's a subject I consider to be important.

Finally there are lots of threads on Murray's World. Us conspiracy theorists have been excommunicated for our heresy from all the other threads. Surely it does no harm to give us somewhere to play quietly out of the way. I keep out of the football threads by and large (supporting Norwich City doesn't leave me a lot of choice...!!!).   If you so vehemently disagree with the ideas put forward and discussed on this thread, then surely you could do the same with this thread?

I acknowledge your opinion on this topic but for the reasons stated will continue to worry at it.

Meanwhile I will now return to my DVD of The Wimbledon Final 2013.......

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