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Doping in Tennis ?

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Grabcopy
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #480 on: October 12, 2013, 03:59 PM »
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@Grabcopy
Why "disrespectful"? Should he not be honest?

Dunno. What's better? Being honest and hurting people in public or having what's known as 'class' and bottling it up inside?
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ProdigyEng
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #481 on: October 12, 2013, 04:01 PM »
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I will say it before and I will say it again:

How can non dopers keep up with none dopers?

If several players in the top 10 are supposedly doping, my opinion would be that they are all doping.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #482 on: October 12, 2013, 04:21 PM »
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I will say it before and I will say it again:

How can non dopers keep up with none dopers?

If several players in the top 10 are supposedly doping, my opinion would be that they are all doping.

But surely if you look at it that way,you could also argue,well,maybe if those several players weren't doping,then they might not be in the top 10?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the theries posted on here.I'm not really sure,to be honest!For myself,I agree with the innocent until proven guilty thing.I certainly wouldn't start out assuming anyone is doping.However,some of what is written on here does seem to make a certain sort of depressing sense!Certainly I no longer believe that Rafa was out all that time with his knees.Some of the time,maybe,sure.And I'm not saying he was out because of anything illegal or to do with doping.But it seems clear to me that he spent at least some of that time developing his game.Which,fine-I don't hold that against the man.But I don't like that we were told that he was out all that time with an injury if maybe he was not out all of that time because of an injury.(If I'm wrong,sincerest apologies to you,Rafa!)

But I do believe that Rafa and Novak are intrinsically good guys.And with how much admiration and liking Andy has for Rafa,well,I just find it hard to reconcile that with a guy who'd be doping.Andy's not stupid,he's a sharp guy who usually reads people pretty well.And he's around Rafa a lot-and has been for years.We know Andy's views on dopers.So I find it hard to believe Andy would want anything to do with Rafa if he even suspected he was doping-and Andy,seeing so much more of him,would be in a much better position to suspect than any of us,really.

Anyway,sorry,I'm getting off my own topic here.I originally just wanted to reply to Prodigy with my own hypothetical query!
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Connor
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #483 on: October 12, 2013, 08:19 PM »
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But surely if you look at it that way,you could also argue,well,maybe if those several players weren't doping,then they might not be in the top 10?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the theries posted on here.I'm not really sure,to be honest!For myself,I agree with the innocent until proven guilty thing.I certainly wouldn't start out assuming anyone is doping.However,some of what is written on here does seem to make a certain sort of depressing sense!Certainly I no longer believe that Rafa was out all that time with his knees.Some of the time,maybe,sure.And I'm not saying he was out because of anything illegal or to do with doping.But it seems clear to me that he spent at least some of that time developing his game.Which,fine-I don't hold that against the man.But I don't like that we were told that he was out all that time with an injury if maybe he was not out all of that time because of an injury.(If I'm wrong,sincerest apologies to you,Rafa!)

But I do believe that Rafa and Novak are intrinsically good guys.And with how much admiration and liking Andy has for Rafa,well,I just find it hard to reconcile that with a guy who'd be doping.Andy's not stupid,he's a sharp guy who usually reads people pretty well.And he's around Rafa a lot-and has been for years.We know Andy's views on dopers.So I find it hard to believe Andy would want anything to do with Rafa if he even suspected he was doping-and Andy,seeing so much more of him,would be in a much better position to suspect than any of us,really.

Anyway,sorry,I'm getting off my own topic here.I originally just wanted to reply to Prodigy with my own hypothetical query!

Waffle. Danster yer losing yer wee touch. lol
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Aileen
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #484 on: October 12, 2013, 08:47 PM »
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the theries posted on here.I'm not really sure,to be honest!For myself,I agree with the innocent until proven guilty thing.I certainly wouldn't start out assuming anyone is doping.However,some of what is written on here does seem to make a certain sort of depressing sense!Certainly I no longer believe that Rafa was out all that time with his knees.Some of the time,maybe,sure.And I'm not saying he was out because of anything illegal or to do with doping.But it seems clear to me that he spent at least some of that time developing his game.Which,fine-I don't hold that against the man.But I don't like that we were told that he was out all that time with an injury if maybe he was not out all of that time because of an injury.(If I'm wrong,sincerest apologies to you,Rafa!)
Injury, then a stomach virus which magically he knew well in advance was going to keep him out of the AO.  I agree though that if he was just perfecting his game, then why not come out and say so?  There's no shame in that, although even if that were true, I would still have expected a lot of match-rustiness.   However I wouldn't trust Uncle Toni to post a letter for me, so perhaps Rafa was somehow getting match practice and very secretly at that.  Also I do not believe for one minute that the fact he was openly reported to have been playing golf 'as part of his rehabilitation' was true, given that golf is murder on the knees. 

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But I do believe that Rafa and Novak are intrinsically good guys.And with how much admiration and liking Andy has for Rafa,well,I just find it hard to reconcile that with a guy who'd be doping.Andy's not stupid,he's a sharp guy who usually reads people pretty well.And he's around Rafa a lot-and has been for years.We know Andy's views on dopers.So I find it hard to believe Andy would want anything to do with Rafa if he even suspected he was doping-and Andy,seeing so much more of him,would be in a much better position to suspect than any of us,really.
Yes, but Andy isn't likely to want to go naming names purely on the grounds of suspicion since that would reflect very badly on him, especially if the suspicions were proved to be untrue.

I do believe though, certainly from what l've heard about his book, and the few excerpts I have read, that Rafa is to be pitied more than condemned.  Uncle Toni obviously has him completely under his control, even if he is 27, hence probably all his OCD behaviour.  Everyone knows that all the information about Rafa comes from his uncle, and not from Rafa himself, and that no doubt if Toni says 'jump!' Rafa will ask 'How high?'




[ Last edit by Aileen October 12, 2013, 09:09 PM ] IP Logged
xxdanixx
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #485 on: October 12, 2013, 09:05 PM »
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Waffle. Danster yer losing yer wee touch. lol
Gee,thanks Rolling Eyes

Yes, but Andy isn't likely to want to go naming names purely on the grounds of suspicion since that would reflect very badly on him, especially if the suspicions were proved to be untrue.



I see what you mean Aileen,but that isn't really what I meant.Sorry,I probably should have tried to be more clear.I suppose what I mean is-just say Andy did have suspicions.Not enough that he could say anything mind you,but even just a little suspicion in his own head.I'd think that he would not want anything more to do with Rafa than he could help.After all,there's plenty of players on tour who have the minimum necessary amount to do with each other.

But that's not what Andy is like when it comes to Rafa.There's a genuine friendliness and liking there.Outside of tennis,there's a real friendliness there.When Andy speaks of him,as a person and of his achievements,he speaks warmly-there's a real respect and admiration there.And I just can't see Andy being able to pretend to have such a high regard for someone if he had even the tiniest bit of suspicion about them being a doper,I just can't.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #486 on: October 12, 2013, 09:05 PM »
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Gee,thanks Rolling Eyes

I see what you mean Aileen,but that isn't really what I meant.Sorry,I probably should have tried to be more clear.I suppose what I mean is-just say Andy did have suspicions.Not enough that he could say anything mind you,but even just a little suspicion in his own head.I'd think that he would not want anything more to do with Rafa than he could help.After all,there's plenty of players on tour who have the minimum necessary amount to do with each other.

But that's not what Andy is like when it comes to Rafa.There's a genuine friendliness and liking there.Outside of tennis,there's a real friendliness there.When Andy speaks of him,as a person and of his achievements,he speaks warmly-there's a real respect and admiration there.And I just can't see Andy being able to pretend to have such a high regard for someone if he had even the tiniest bit of suspicion about them being a doper,I just can't.

No problem. Anytime mate.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #487 on: October 12, 2013, 09:26 PM »
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Gee,thanks Rolling Eyes

I see what you mean Aileen,but that isn't really what I meant.Sorry,I probably should have tried to be more clear.I suppose what I mean is-just say Andy did have suspicions.Not enough that he could say anything mind you,but even just a little suspicion in his own head.I'd think that he would not want anything more to do with Rafa than he could help.After all,there's plenty of players on tour who have the minimum necessary amount to do with each other.

But that's not what Andy is like when it comes to Rafa.There's a genuine friendliness and liking there.Outside of tennis,there's a real friendliness there.When Andy speaks of him,as a person and of his achievements,he speaks warmly-there's a real respect and admiration there.And I just can't see Andy being able to pretend to have such a high regard for someone if he had even the tiniest bit of suspicion about them being a doper,I just can't.
We don't really know just how friendly Andy and Rafa are now anyway.  And as for the respect thing, it would seem very strange if a top four player were to say anything other than positive about Rafa in response to a direct question. 

Anyway as I agreed with you in that post Rafa may not necessarily be doping or doing anything illegal, but that he/Uncle Toni would have been better to have been more forthcoming about his prolonged 'injury' absence.

I just hope people don't start making comparisons between Andy and Rafa when Andy does return to competition and perhaps struggles a bit to begin with as far as getting his confidence and match-fitness back is concerned.  Three/four months is still quite a long time to be out at his level.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #488 on: October 13, 2013, 08:17 AM »
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Dunno. What's better? Being honest and hurting people in public or having what's known as 'class' and bottling it up inside?


Toni was so nasty to him when he was younger, why should Rafa respect him? Respect has to be earned.
Don't like the word "class" anyway. Purely subjective value judgement. Strangely enough Americans seem to use it a lot more than we do, given America's supposed to be a "classless" society. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #489 on: October 13, 2013, 11:33 AM »
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Toni was so nasty to him when he was younger, why should Rafa respect him? Respect has to be earned.
Don't like the word "class" anyway. Purely subjective value judgement. Strangely enough Americans seem to use it a lot more than we do, given America's supposed to be a "classless" society. Rolling Eyes

I do not think he has 'respect' for Uncle Toni as such.  I think he is just totally controlled by his whole family especially Uncle Toni.  What I do see is someone who did not make it himself determined that his nephew would at all costs and Nadal's parents seemed to have gone along with it.  That is my interpretation of his book.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #490 on: October 13, 2013, 06:45 PM »
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I think that there are an ever increasing number of people, many of them probably reluctantly, who are starting to face the facts that there are too many things about Nadal that do not add up.


Just wanted to say Masaka, you can add me to the list of supporters.

I don't really want to think of any player as a doper, including Nadal, not without proof. I have this rather romantic image, which I suspect applies to most people to be honest, that all the players are basically playing on a level playing field, it's just that some are simply more talented than others. On the whole that view is probably largely true, but I don't think you need to be an expert on Nadal to see that something is not right.

I do think Nadal might have some sort of knee issue. He is a tennis player and we all know how hard tennis is on the body. The way he moves must put strain on his knees. He isn't the lightest on his feet out there either, he has an explosive sort of movement. I also firmly believe his build is too big for his frame. It just looks all wrong, all out of proportion. I think he's carrying a lot of weight around his upper body, which must create strains and stresses on his knees. What I question is the severity of the knee issue.

I don't think for a second that Nadal's knees are anywhere near as bad as he says. The other day there was a comment from him to the effect that he is still playing in constant pain. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it. Maybe I would if I just saw it as him being determined to win no matter what, or there was some sign in his movement that things are not comfortable, like Andy for example when his back has played him up, but all the time Nadal has allegedly been in 'constant pain' he has been moving perfectly well.

No one will convince me that Nadal is playing straight with people, but I don't know who is at the root of all the deceit, his uncle, which wouldn't surprise me, or himself. Personally I no longer buy Nadal's cutesy, innocent wide-eyed bit any more than I think Uncle Toni is a nice, unassuming sort of bloke who wants nothing more than for Rafa to be happy and is a fan of little children and puppies. Personally I think Nadal is a pathological liar and I think his uncle is a nasty, overbearing bully of a man.

I think Nadal spent the time he was out working on his game. That's fine, there are no rules about that. I also don't expect him to say exactly what he's been working on, because that would be daft. What I object to very strongly is Nadal and/or his team, treating people like complete fools.


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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #491 on: October 13, 2013, 07:12 PM »
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I couldn't agree more TJ.  I think there are rules though about players taking time out if they are not injured, aren't there?  I'm pretty sure that if they claim injury then they are not penalised in the same way as they would have been if they had merely taken time out.   I just cannot believe that Nadal has come back and had the season he has had if he hadn't been working on his game - which means, even if he isn't doping, he's cheating.
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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #492 on: October 13, 2013, 07:12 PM »
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@Teejay

I don't actively go looking for Dopers either. I too would like to believe in results being decided on talent alone. However realistically they are not. Logically if doping is present in other sports it must be present in tennis as well.

Nadal's performance just doesn't ring true with me. Add in what we know about how Lance Armstrong managed to pull the wool over people's eyes for so long, as well as the on running saga of the Spanish Doping doctor and I personally  think that there are justifiable grounds for suspicion.

I agree that there might well be some minor issue with his knees, but no more than you would expect from a man who has played a high impact sport ( if that's the right term) for years.

Like you I am unsure who is at the root of it.

Personally I think some of my views are derived from being possessed of a complete set of duff joints, knees included. They just don 't magically get better in that way.

I do also subscribe to the no smoke without fire school of thought.

These rumours seem to have been around for years. Where did they come from? Who started them? Why were they started? Was it just a disgruntled opponent?

I don't know what the truth is, but I am certain it's not the version we are getting from Nadal, or for that matter Novak "gluten free" Djokovic.

I very much hope that the truth will come out, so the sport can move on.

I am not deliberately intending to upset people, but I think it's important to question things, that might be indicating corruption.

It's not just about Mr M, it's also about the journeyman player who might have an outside chance against a high ranked player on an off day, but has no chance at all if they are doping. It's also bad for the dopers health and can kill.

I know my drugs might shorten my lifespan. That's a risk I am prepared to take to function. Sportspeople should not be put in the position of having to make those potential choices IMHO.





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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #493 on: October 14, 2013, 10:19 PM »
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Dearie me.

This thread is going ..

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Re: Doping in Tennis ? « Reply #494 on: October 15, 2013, 06:27 AM »
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It's hard to know what you expect Linda, if not people talking about doping on the 'Doping in Tennis' thread!
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