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Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss.

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scotnadian
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #120 on: July 13, 2012, 02:51 PM »
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I'm a big Jimmy Fallon fan. He does a regular spoof segment on RF.. sort of like PseudoFed personified. Here's his latest one: lmao

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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #121 on: July 13, 2012, 05:56 PM »
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What Fed says.....

Wimbledon 2012: I'm not greatest player - Roger Federer

Roger Federer says he does not feel like the greatest player ever despite winning his seventh Wimbledon title.

The Swiss beat Britain's Andy Murray to capture a record 17th Grand Slam triumph - his first since January 2010. But he said the modern era meant players were under more pressure to chase records.

"I don't feel better than anyone, because we need past champions to pave the way for our generation and we have become very professional," he said. "They have led the way and inspired myself and other players to chase the big records out there.
Back in the day they weren't doing that, they were just playing to play tennis. Things have changed dramatically with the press reminding us 'you should do this and win that and you'll be considered the greatest of all time'.

"And anyway I don't think you can compare different eras in tennis."

more at http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/18764325

Presumably he was asked the GOAT question. I'm actually quite impressed with the answer


I don't think he can possibly claim himself as the tennis GOAT. That would be not only insulting to all the other past champions but also, he would be down with a lot more arguments against it than for it. You can say he was the best in his era (2003-2007) and perhaps the most successful (result-wise) of the Open era, but never best of the best.
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Rachie
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #122 on: July 14, 2012, 01:03 AM »
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Fed is definately the undisputed GOAT imo, and this is coming from someone who dosen't like the bloke.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #123 on: July 14, 2012, 01:12 AM »
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Fed is definately the undisputed GOAT imo, and this is coming from someone who dosen't like the bloke.
Totally agree. I'm not sure what people are not getting about the fact he is the GOAT, other than sour grapes. I also don't like the guy much, but i'm honest enough to admit that the not liking comes from the fact he has blown out the guy I so want to win. Shrug
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #124 on: July 14, 2012, 03:43 AM »
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Fed is definately the undisputed GOAT imo, and this is coming from someone who dosen't like the bloke.

Well, just because you don't like him and yet you think he is the undisputed GOAT doesn't necessarily make your statement automatically true or valid. If anything, it's a bizarre logic.

The so called undisputed King can't beat Nadal in a GS match for the life of his and hasn't beaten him since 2007 - not to mention, the undisputed king's main rival was Andy Roddick from 2003 to 2007, who in his entire career won only 1 Grand Slam. The undisputed king went on to beat the likes of Phillippousis, Gonzalez, Roddick (four times), Soderling, Baghdatis, Agassi (a then 35 year old) and a newcomer like Djokovic (20) in the 2007 USO final to win 10 Slams. Not to mention, a mentally crippled player like Murray whom he beat 3 times to win 3 more Slams.

And these players Phillippousis, Gonzalez, Baghdatis, Soderling, Roddick and Murray (no disrespect to my man and he would have beaten the line up before him with his closed as did the "undisputed king" in his time, but he still needs to be mentioned for the argument's sake)  all have 1 Slam in total in their bag so far.

The other two players were Safin and Hewitt and together they have 4 Slams. Hewitt was no show after 2003 when he had to sideline with injuries and stuff, and Agassi by that time was way too old. And Nadal had just turned 19 when he won his first RG in 2005. Safin was always a head case and was never serious about his career.

Nadal had to beat Federer 8 times in GSs to win his 8 and the other 3 majors came beating Nole (twice) and Puerta and together they have 22 Slams in their bag. I don't think I need to say more than that in his case as the "GOAT" himself makes a strong case for Nadal.

Sampras had to beat Agassi (4 times), Becker, Courier, Rafter, Chang, Ivanisevic (2 times), Moya to win 11 Slams and together this bunch have 22 Slams. The other two players were Cedric Pioline (twice) and Todd Martin and both have better results in GS than some of the players in the first bunch Federer had to beat back in his time. All these players with the exception of Agassi were all extremely good players who took their career very seriously and there was no nonsense from them and by no means were they mental midgets. If they lost, they simply lost playing their best tennis. Agassi though was on and off in the 90s, but whenever he played, he played his heart out but it was evident from the start that, Sampras was simply the superior player (6-3 in GS, 20-14 overall) and their H2H has strong evidence to that.
[ Last edit by Emma Jean July 14, 2012, 05:08 AM ] IP Logged
Crisstti
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #125 on: July 14, 2012, 06:40 AM »
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 Good posting!
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TheMadHatter
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #126 on: July 14, 2012, 01:38 PM »
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Whilst I agree with you EJ, to play devil's advocate, could I not argue that it is because of Federer that those players only have one slam between them? Also you are not taking into account who he may have beaten en-route to the final - it is a bit narrow to look purely at who he has faced IN the final.

It's the Nadal H2H (in Slams, particularly) that is the biggest flaw in the Federer GOAT argument though.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #127 on: July 14, 2012, 04:28 PM »
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Whilst I agree with you EJ, to play devil's advocate, could I not argue that it is because of Federer that those players only have one slam between them? Also you are not taking into account who he may have beaten en-route to the final - it is a bit narrow to look purely at who he has faced IN the final.

It's the Nadal H2H (in Slams, particularly) that is the biggest flaw in the Federer GOAT argument though.

Federer was clearly the best player in his time (2003-2007) but the players he was faced with in that time period were simply not good enough with the exception of Safin and Nalbandian, but specifically Safin. He came at a time when all the great players were either in decline (Hewitt due to injuries, Agassi due to old age,) or into self indulgence (Safin, Nalbandian etc.) or too young (Nadal, Nole and Andy), so Federer was basically left with a bunch of mediocre players and if Andy were to play in that time period, he too would have won most of the Slams. In any case, no one was as dedicated and motivated as Federer and as serious when it came to tennis.

Even Paul lately admitted that there's a vast difference between Sampras and Federer. Federer still gets excited about small tournaments whereas Sampras was long done with those and was very mature about everything. Sampras hated traveling whereas Federer still loves it and has given Mirka everything so that she wouldn't stand in the way of his true love. Sampras gave up tennis and retired so that he could start a family. So when a person's life revolves so much around his work, in this case, his tennis and if he's good at it, then the results are bound to reflect that as well, so we basically don't know how much others would have achieved if they were just as much dedicated and single minded as Federer. And that together with Federer's good health something he was born with as opposed to Sampras, who was born with a condition and Nadal, whose knee was always a factor ever since he turned pro. However, it is entirely to Federer's credit that he was that dedicated but in his time, the only super consistent players were Roddick and a baby Nadal and they were his main rivals.  

And his en route to those finals aren't a different story as they were the same bunch playing at the same time. It's not like there are some hidden players who were great but got beaten by Federer.

Here's a list of the top seeds at Wimbledon in 2003. You can see Mark Phillippousis, the finalist, wasn't even seeded there. And you'll also notice a lot of the leftovers from the 90s.

1. Australia Lleyton Hewitt (First Round)
2. United States Andre Agassi (Fourth Round)
3. Spain Juan Carlos Ferrero (Fourth Round)
4. Switzerland Roger Federer (Champion)
5. United States Andy Roddick (Semifinals)
6. Argentina David Nalbandian (Fourth Round)
7. Argentina Guillermo Coria (First Round)
8. Netherlands Sjeng Schalken (Quarterfinals)
9. Germany Rainer Schüttler (Fourth Round)
10. United Kingdom Tim Henman (Quarterfinals)
11. Czech Republic Jiří Novák (Third Round)
12. Thailand Paradorn Srichaphan (Fourth Round)
13. France Sébastien Grosjean (Semifinals)
14. Belgium Xavier Malisse (First Round)
15. France Arnaud Clément (Second Round)
16. Russia Mikhail Youzhny (Second Round)
17. Brazil Gustavo Kuerten (Second Round)
18. n/a
19. Chile Fernando González (First Round)
20. Russia Yevgeny Kafelnikov (First Round)
21. Netherlands Martin Verkerk (First Round)
22. Spain Félix Mantilla (First Round)
23. Argentina Agustín Calleri (Second Round)
24. n/a
25. Spain Tommy Robredo (Third Round)
26. United States James Blake (Second Round)
27. Morocco Younes El Aynaoui (Third Round)
28. South Africa Wayne Ferreira (First Round)
29. Argentina Gastón Gaudio (First Round)
30. Finland Jarkko Nieminen (Third Round)
31. United States Vincent Spadea (First Round)
32. Argentina Juan Ignacio Chela (Second Round)
33. Russia Nikolay Davydenko (First Round)
34. Czech Republic Radek Štěpánek (Third Round)


So Federer had to beat M. Phillippousis, A. Roddick, S. Schalken, F. Lopez, M. Fish, S. Koubek and H T Lee to win his first Grand Slam and his first Wimbledon. And he was 22 at that time.

On the other hand, in 1990, Sampras had to beat A. Agassi, J. McEnroe, E. Lendl, T. Muster, J. Hlasek, P. Lundgren, D. Goldie to win his first Grand Slam. And he was 19 at that time.

And here's the top 16 seeds of 1990 USO:

The seeded players are listed below. Pete Sampras is the champion; others show the round in which they were eliminated.

1. Sweden Stefan Edberg (First round)
2. West Germany Boris Becker (Semifinalist)
3. Czechoslovakia Ivan Lendl (Quarterfinalist)
4. United States Andre Agassi (Finalist)
5. Ecuador Andrés Gómez (First round)
6. Austria Thomas Muster (Fourth round)
7. Spain Emilio Sánchez (Fourth round)
8. United States Brad Gilbert (Third round)

9. United States Aaron Krickstein (Quarterfinalist)
10. Soviet Union Andrei Chesnokov (Third round)
11. United States Michael Chang (Third round)
12. United States Pete Sampras (Champion)
13. United States Jay Berger (Fourth round)
14. United States Jim Courier (Second round)
15. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Goran Ivanišević (Third round)
16. Argentina Martín Jaite (Second round)

So to sum it up, Federer time saw the weakest field in any era which basically allowed him to win 12 GSs, but from 2008 and on, it just got a lot tougher which pretty much restricted Federer to win no more than 5 Slams in 5 years span. But as I mentioned before, no one in tennis history has taken tennis as seriously as Federer and the results are bound to reflect that as well, but this, by no means, indicates that he's the GOAT given all the details.

An undisputed GOAT means someone who saw just as tough era as before and beat all his main rivals to win the most Slams and stayed on top more than 6 consecutive years breaking all the crucial records of previous times.

But ^^^ that's just for the argument's sake. In my world, the words such as "undisputed king" or "GOAT" do no exist simply because Federer's records will be broken too in the future. But more importantly, how can anyone even say someone's the GOAT when it's nearly impossible to compare the eras when there's so much to take into account such as, the surface, different competitions, the playing fields, racket technology and so many other variables day in day out. Just plain ludicrous. One is not being honest but rather ignorant if they say so.
[ Last edit by Emma Jean July 14, 2012, 05:04 PM ] IP Logged
TheMadHatter
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #128 on: July 14, 2012, 05:11 PM »
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Great post. Smile
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #129 on: July 16, 2012, 10:54 AM »
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I got a link on FB today from Australian Open people celebrating RF's 287 weeks at no.1 Rolling Eyes  Like I care!
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #130 on: July 17, 2012, 05:44 AM »
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Great post and exactly how I feel about the comparing of eras.  It is impossible.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #131 on: July 17, 2012, 02:42 PM »
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I'm a big Jimmy Fallon fan. He does a regular spoof segment on RF.. sort of like PseudoFed personified. Here's his latest one: lmao


roflmao Brilliant Scot.......Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #132 on: July 17, 2012, 02:49 PM »
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http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/DEUCE-Tennis/Federer-No1.aspx
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #133 on: July 17, 2012, 04:58 PM »
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #134 on: July 17, 2012, 05:04 PM »
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Looks like a slightly deformed cat.
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