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Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss.

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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #135 on: July 17, 2012, 05:13 PM »
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And here’s all the Majors Federer won since 2008.

2008 US Open               Semi               Final
Federer                          Djokovic             Murray
2009 Roland Garros
Federer                          Del Potro            Soderling
2009 Wimbledon            
Federer                          T. Haas               Roddick
2010 Australian Open      
Federer                          Tsonga               Murray
2012 Wimbledon            
Federer                          Djokovic             Murray

If you look at all the GS winners since 2008, you'll see that Djokovic beat Nadal 3 times to win 2011 Wimbledon, USO and 2012 AO, whereas Federer beat Nadal only twice in GS finals and both happened at Wimbledon between the timeframe 2003-2007.

Since 2008, Federer’s H2H vs the other 3 top players are below. It’s safe to say that if Murray wasn’t hampered by the enormous pressure, he probably would have had better GS H2H vs Federer.

Nadal vs Federer:  
Overall H2H: 10-4
Grand Slam: 5-0

Djokovic vs Federer:  
Overall H2H 11-10
Grand Slam: 5-4

Federer vs Murray:
Overall H2H: 7-7
Grand Slam: 3-0

Now, you can say that Federer has started declining since 2008 or these players – Nadal, Djokovic and Murray – are significantly better than the players Federer had dealt with in his time, which is from 2003 to 2007, where he pretty much dominated the tour that allowed him to win 12 majors.

Since 2008, he’s won 5 majors and that’s 5 out of 19 majors. From 2003 to 2007, Federer won 12 majors and that’s 12 out of 20 majors.

So basically, the first 5 years, he’s won 60% of the majors and the next 5 years, he’s won 26% of the total majors. Of course there’s one major yet to be played and if he goes on to win it, it’s still going to be 30% of the total majors and it’s still half the percentage he’d won in part 1, but until he does so, it will be less than half the percentage.

As to his Wimbledon win this year, I believe quite a few including Simon Reed predicted just last year that Federer was going to sweep the floor once again, as both Nadal and Djokovic are in a dog fight since the start of 2011 until RG final and that was just before Wimbledon. It’s no coincidence that Nadal was ousted at the start of Wimbledon by a player ranked 100 and Djokovic looked only a shadow of himself. The 10 minutes laugh by Federer right after Nadal took the beating by a no name was the laugh of a person, who knew that his door had just opened for him to take yet another title.

Especially given that, the last 14 of 19 Slams were won by either Nadal or Djokovic after all with the exception of Del Potro in 2009 and all the ones won by Federer, not in one incident did he have to beat either Nadal or Djokovic in a final.

Quite ironic when you realize that once Nadal took over, Federer was never able to beat him in a GS; whereas even after the 7 straight losses to Djokovic just last year, Nadal was still able to beat Djokovic in a GS final this year (RG), something Federer, the supposed GOAT, has yet to do. And now that both Nadal and Djokovic are all worn out after the long fight and Murray still remains with the most pressure, Federer becomes once again the “best” player in the world. Never mind that he still has to do his job. In any case, he has to be the single most opportunist I’ve ever seen in anything.
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janetx
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #136 on: July 17, 2012, 05:18 PM »
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That Fallon video is funny at the beginning especially.

Emma Jean, I tend to agree with you. But I believe there is no "GOAT" because you cannot really compare eras for all sundry of reasons, including technology, competition, and even the tour itself. When Borg/Mac etc were playing, not all of the players would regularly play the Australian Open, for example. If you took away Fed's AO's he'd have 4 less slams.

Then of course, Fed is still playing, as is Rafa. And Rafa is only 6 slams away from Fed's total and he has a winning record over Roger, including a lopsided winning record at the slams in particular.

So I don't know. It's not any kind of "fact". It's just an opinion.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #137 on: July 17, 2012, 05:26 PM »
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That Fallon video is funny at the beginning especially.

Emma Jean, I tend to agree with you. But I believe there is no "GOAT" because you cannot really compare eras for all sundry of reasons, including technology, competition, and even the tour itself. When Borg/Mac etc were playing, not all of the players would regularly play the Australian Open, for example. If you took away Fed's AO's he'd have 4 less slams.

Then of course, Fed is still playing, as is Rafa. And Rafa is only 6 slams away from Fed's total and he has a winning record over Roger, including a lopsided winning record at the slams in particular.

So I don't know. It's not any kind of "fact". It's just an opinion.

Sampras himself didn't play AO a couple of times. Anyway, of course I don't believe in GOAT thing which I'd stated already in my previous post, but what I am saying is that, if he were then how many arguments can you make against it. You can see that there are just far too many loop holes in the argument.

Any person with a decent amount of tennis knowledge should know that there can’t be such a thing as the “GOAT”.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #138 on: July 18, 2012, 09:24 AM »
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Tsk. Churlish comment by someone called Nigel:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2174221/Roger-Federer-sets-new-record-weeks-world-number-one.html#comments
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #139 on: July 18, 2012, 10:37 AM »
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 w00t Priceless Nigel!  lmao
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #140 on: July 19, 2012, 05:47 PM »
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After Sampras won his first slam at the US Open, he had to wait more than two years to get his 2nd Slam and that’s purely because the field he was playing at that time was extremely tough with far too many legends playing around the same time. Below I put together the first three years of Slams winners of that era followed by the next era led by Federer

Start of Sampras’ era:

1991
Australian Open: Ivan Lendl defeated Boris Becker
French Open: Jim Courier defeated Andre Agassi
Wimbledon: Michael Stich defeated Boris Becker
US Open: Stefan Edberg defeated Jim Courier

1992
Australian Open: Boris Becker defeated Jim Courier
French Open: Jim Courier defeated Petr Korda
Wimbledon: Andre Agassi defeated Goran Ivanisevic
US Open: Stefan Edberg defeated Pete Sampras

1993
Australian Open: Jim Courier defeated Stefan Edberg
French Open: Sergi Bruguera defeated Jim Courier
Wimbledon: Pete Sampras defeated Jim Courier
US Open: Pete Sampras defeated Cedric Pioline


Start of Federer’s era:

2003
Australian Open: Andre Agassi defeated Rainer Schüttler
French Open: Juan Carlos Ferrero defeated Martin Verkerk
Wimbledon: Roger Federer defeated Mark Phillippoussis
US Open: Andy Roddick defeated Juan Carlos Ferrerro

2004
Australian Open: Roger Federer defeated Marat Safin
French Open: Gaston Gaudio defeated Guillermo Coria
Wimbledon: Roger Federer defeated Andy Roddick
US Open: Roger Federer defeated Lleyton Hewitt

2005
Australian Open: Marat Safin defeated Lleyton Hewitt
French Open: Rafael Nadal defeated Mariano Puerta
Wimbledon: Roger Federer defeated Andy Roddick
US Open: Roger Federer defeated Andre Agassi
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #141 on: July 19, 2012, 06:14 PM »
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Good post Emma Jean!

Other than Agassi and Rafa, none of the players in the beginning years of Fed's era have more than one or two slams, including Ferrero, Safin, Hewitt and Roddick.

Meanwhile, in Sampras' era, you have all these multiple slam holders and some "legends": Lendl, Becker, Courier, Agassi, Edberg.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #142 on: July 19, 2012, 06:21 PM »
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Compare how many of the names from the top three years' finals that you recognise to the bottom three. I didn't realise how many top players there were in that era. Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Stich. Of course the age gap meant some were just starting out whilst others were past their peak (compared to this era with three close to their peak/at their peak and one at his peak/just past his peak).
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #143 on: July 19, 2012, 06:52 PM »
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And I am all about opening your eyes. Ho hum.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #144 on: July 19, 2012, 06:53 PM »
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Good post Emma Jean!

Other than Agassi and Rafa, none of the players in the beginning years of Fed's era have more than one or two slams, including Ferrero, Safin, Hewitt and Roddick.

Meanwhile, in Sampras' era, you have all these multiple slam holders and some "legends": Lendl, Becker, Courier, Agassi, Edberg.

Mind you, Agassi was 33 in 2003.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #145 on: July 19, 2012, 06:55 PM »
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^ True, but Agassi had a bit of a late renaissance because he took that long break away from tennis. I think that's in part what allowed him to play until 2006. That and an extreme fitness program plus regular cortisone shots. Ouch!
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #146 on: July 19, 2012, 07:23 PM »
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From 1999 to 2003, Andre won 5 Slams. 3 Slams from his first win in 1992 (Wimbledon) until 1998. He had a couple of years of downtime in between. Even if he had been super serious though, with Sampras around, he wouldn't have done much. It's just like how Nadal is superior to Federer.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #147 on: July 19, 2012, 07:48 PM »
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This is for MH since he sort of inquired about the age of players around that time.

In 1990, the year Sampras won his first Slam, these were the players around and below is a list of their respective age:

John McEnroe – 1959 (31)
Ivan Lendl – 1960 (30)
Stefan Edberg – 1966 (24)
Boris Becker – 1967 (23)
Michael Stich – 1968 (23)
Jim Courier – 1970 (20)
Andre Agassi – 1970 (20)
Thomas Muster – 1967 (23)
Goran Ivanisevic – 1971 (19)
Pete Sampras – 1971 (19)
Michael Chang – 1972 (18)

For the sole reason that Sampras actually won his first slam in 1990, I should start his era from that year so here we go again:

1990

Australian Open: Ivan Lendl defeated Stefan Edberg

French Open: Andres Gomez Santos defeated Andre Agassi (Michael Chang was the defending Champion at age 17)

Wimbledon: Stefan Edberg defeated Boris Becker

US Open: Pete Sampras defeated Andre Agassi (beat Muster, Lendl, McEnroe and Agassi in succession to claim his first Grand Slam and establish a new era)

The year Federer started out his era (2003), there was only one worthy opponent left and that was Andre Agassi (33) but he was pretty much done by that time, but you can see that he was still a couple of years older than a couple of members in the generation Sampras had to face in his era.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #148 on: July 19, 2012, 08:03 PM »
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Mind you, at the start of 00s, Sampras was also challenged with the newcomers like Hewitt, Safin, Roddick and Federer. And Agassi was still around.

This will tell you how much Sampras had to deal with not only during his time but also the beginning and end of his time. And I have yet to mention players like Patrick Rafter, Richard Krajicek, Wayne Ferreira, Alex Corretja, Marcelo Rios, Yevgany Kafelnikov, Petr Korda, Todd Martin, Cedric Pioline, Guy Forget, Tim Henman, Jeff Tarango, Mark Phillippousis, Andrei Medvedev, Alberto Costa, Sergi Bruguera, Greg Rusedski, Vince Spadea, B. Bjorkman, Thomas Enqvist, Arnold Clement, Fabrice Santoro, Thomas Johansson, Karol Kucera etc. The list is countless with really great playres who had the balls to take any of the top players out on any given day. Nowadays, upsets are a rare find. 
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #149 on: July 19, 2012, 10:40 PM »
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Just to play devil's advocate, and cos I'm a bit confused, here's an idea.

Maybe between 2003 and 2007, it wasn't a weak era. Maybe nobody else got a look-in cos Fedex was just soooooo good.

Let's imagine that Fedex didn't exist (oh God, yes). Between 03 and 07, Roddick won five slams (three Wimbledon), and Safin and Hewitt four each.

Would we then see it as a weak era? After all, it contained three multiple slam winners.

Please, somebody, anybody, tell me why I'm wrong.
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