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Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss.

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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #165 on: July 23, 2012, 06:59 PM »
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Both Sampras's serves were better than Federers. I would say  Federer's forehand was more penetrating than Pete's and that Rogers's backhand was superior both with the slice and the topspin thanks to Nadal's relentless leftie assault on it which has honed it into something to be marvelled at for a single fister.

What does it for me is the difference between the two on clay (Federer was/is far superior) and also the fact
that the surfaces are so much slower these days for the single fister making success so much more of an achievement now.

In addition there are so many more people (both professional and amateur) playing tennis these days
a fact which I feel would make the current triumvirate plus perhaps Andy, odds-on favourites to eclipse the likes of Laver,Hoad,Rosewall,Borg,Connors, McEnroe and Lendl anyday and with their eyes closed!

Sampras’ serves both 1st and 2nd, running forehand (both DTL and crosscourt), overheads and volleys are his trademarks. In fact, McEnroe himself, who was known as one of the greatest volleyers of all time, admitted that Sampras’ are out of this world, simply because he’s the only one in the Open era who saw most success with his volleys and for the longest period of time. None of Federer’s weapons stand out as much as Sampras’ does.

As to clay – it would be nice if one of Federer fans do a bit more research before they compare Sampras and Federer’s clay results. The 90s clay field is probably known as the toughest clay era of all time. It was crawling with all the clay courters in the world, as opposed to the 00s, where Federer was only up against 1 or 2 good solid clay courters. Even so he couldn’t get a decent win out of it until 2005, where for the first time, he’d made the semi and then lost to a 19 year old Nadal. Before losing to Nadal like umpteenth times that eventually followed, he had also lost to L. Horna in the very first round in 2003 and to K. Vliegen in the 3rd round in 2004. Never mind that Federer couldn’t get an RG for the life of his until Soderling took Nadal out in 2009. And Soderling isn’t even your typical clay courter.

And it’s a complete myth that Federer is a fast court player and that’s why his single hand backhand is useless against a lefty player like Nadal and conveniently, the surface again comes into play in each conversation as well and yet, the supposed GOAT has no problem dismissing all other left handers like F. Lopez against whom Federer has 10-0 H2H record . Such utter rubbish.

In reality, Federer is extremely good on medium slow to medium fast. They didn’t make any changes to the surface until the end of 2002 and yet, if you took a good look at Federer’s career, you would see he had won only 4 titles in between 1998-2002. 2 indoors (Milan and Vienna) where he basically beat a bunch of leftover clay courters - not to mention, both are 250 events and one of them doesn’t even exist anymore. If he were that good on fast surfaces, then he would have won a few more titles than those insignificant titles in those first 4 years of his where the surfaces remained unchanged.  The two other titles were one on clay and the other, outdoor hard (250 event)

That is as opposed to Sampras who, on the other hand, went on to win US Open in 1990 only two years into his professional career. And he had to beat a lot of the top and experienced legends to win that title.

Never also mind that the surface varied from tournament to tournament in that era and all the players had to adjust their game countless times in the same year. Making the transition from RG, a very slow surface, to Wimbledon, a very fast surface was especially hard and difficult. Most of the clay courters would bounce out in the 1st or 2nd round. It is now very easy for players to play their best as the equipments have changed in a massive way that only favour the current era players and the neutral surface has especially favoured players like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic etc. In fact, Federer blamed his Rome loss to Madrid blue clay as it played much faster which threw him off in Rome, where the surface was much slower.

Today’s players don’t even bother to play any grass court events before Wimbledon and yet they go on to win it. It has now become that easy and doable.

Anyway, a very good way to measure something is to put one champion against the other if they happen to play in the same era. Reason why I put up all of Sampras’ H2H vs all the key players in his time and you can see from the list that he beat almost all of them and leads the H2H quite comfortably. Federer, on the other hand, had to deal with only one champion in his time, a clay specialist in fact, and yet, he couldn’t get a win over him since 2007.
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TheMadHatter
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #166 on: July 24, 2012, 03:01 AM »
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"Today’s players don’t even bother to play any grass court events before Wimbledon and yet they go on to win it. It has now become that easy and doable. "

Only accounts for Djokovic in terms of recent Wimbledon championships. Federer plays Halle and Nadal usually played Queens (obviously from this year one he's switched to Halle).
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #167 on: July 24, 2012, 07:15 AM »
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But MH, Emma has a point surely?  Andy was dumped out of Queens and we all went OMG shocking preparation for Wimbledon. But lo and behold he got to the final.  Shrug
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #168 on: July 24, 2012, 06:38 PM »
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"Today’s players don’t even bother to play any grass court events before Wimbledon and yet they go on to win it. It has now become that easy and doable. "

Only accounts for Djokovic in terms of recent Wimbledon championships. Federer plays Halle and Nadal usually played Queens (obviously from this year one he's switched to Halle).

And Djokovic had no grass title until last year's Wimbledon and grass has always been his least favourite surface. Not only he didn't play any grass events prior Wimbledon, he went on to beat Nadal the defending champion in the final. And while Nadal was ousted by Tsonga at Queens and it felt like a legitimate loss, he too ended up being in the final.

But you can tell without a doubt that these players (Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and Murray) are more than likely to make the later rounds at Wimbledon even if they choose not to play any of the grass events. It's irrelevant and it’s that given and it's all possible because both RG and Wimbledon play almost at same speed, so there's not much adjustment needed.

I remember in 1996, the year Sampras decided to give RG a real shot, he had to beat M. Gustafsson, Bruguera, Todd Martin, S. Draper and finally, Courier (all great clay courters) to get to the semi where he finally ran out of gas and lost to Kafelnikov. He, in fact, was so out of gas due to all the five setters against Bruguera, Todd Matin and Courier in previous matches that, after the very competitive 1st set against Kafelnikov, he lost 0 and 2 in the next two sets. But I still feel had he been able to beat Kafelnikov somehow, he probably would have beaten Stich in the final, but that’s a lot of ifs unfortunately. Those matches were long and grueling and Sampras wasn’t as healthy a person to last out in the sun for too long.

Interestingly enough, that was also the year where Sampras lost his Wimbledon title and a lot of us were already under the impression that he wasn’t going to be ready for Wimbledon in merely two weeks of time. I don’t think he played anything in between at all. But this could also be contributed to the sudden coach change due to Tim’s illness and Sampras unable to cope with all these changes that happened in a very short period of time.   The more you think about it the more you realize how lucky Federer is. He never really had to endure anything this serious in this whole life unlike other champions. Even Nadal’s parents’ divorce was so hard on him.

But anyway, with the new racquet technology and constant surface change to suit current players’ playing style will most surely guarantee far more Slams for the future players than not. There’s nothing more the organizers can possibly want as it will bring more fans, a great TV rating but most importantly, a lot of money. Things will only become easier and not harder.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #169 on: July 24, 2012, 06:47 PM »
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But MH, Emma has a point surely?  Andy was dumped out of Queens and we all went OMG shocking preparation for Wimbledon. But lo and behold he got to the final.  Shrug
True but I was quite pedantically arguing the specific notion that players don't play any grass tournaments then win Wimbledon. I get the point though. It has been slowed down way too much.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #170 on: July 24, 2012, 08:19 PM »
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I do feel you need at least some preparation before US Open since I feel this court hasn't been touched as much but still, Nadal lost at both Montreal and Cincy and yet made the final at the US Open. And this is his least favourite surface.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #171 on: July 24, 2012, 10:01 PM »
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As to clay – it would be nice if one of Federer fans do a bit more research before they compare Sampras and Federer’s clay results. The 90s clay field is probably known as the toughest clay era of all time. It was crawling with all the clay courters in the world, as opposed to the 00s, where Federer was only up against 1 or 2 good solid clay courters. Even so he couldn’t get a decent win out of it until 2005, where for the first time, he’d made the semi and then lost to a 19 year old Nadal. Before losing to Nadal like umpteenth times that eventually followed, he had also lost to L. Horna in the very first round in 2003 and to K. Vliegen in the 3rd round in 2004. Never mind that Federer couldn’t get an RG for the life of his until Soderling took Nadal out in 2009. And Soderling isn’t even your typical clay courter.

His record speaks for itself. He has won the French Open once and has been a losing finalist three times. He won Hamburg — where the clay is the heaviest and slowest in Europe — four times before the German Open was demoted from Masters Series status. He has won Madrid once and has been a finalist once in the two years that the Spanish event has been played on clay and has also won lower-ranked clay events at Gstaad and Estoril. Here in Monte Carlo, he has been a finalist three times. He also has been a finalist in Rome twice.

http://msn.foxsports.com/tennis/story/roger-federer-clay-court-play-second-only-to-rafael-nadal-041211

Did Sampras do as well on clay? Much of what you say about Pete is true but in the final analysis some sort of criterion is needed when attempting to pick the Goat and whereas         H2Hs are a reasonable standard for judgement to choose, I feel Grand Slams are the better.

You quote Federer's head to head with Nadal but in reality their H2Hs in all matches is no that lopsided. I suspect that you play tennis with a two-fisted-backhand and thus consequently would not quite appreciate the inequality of the situation - especially on clay - add to that a relentless opponent with an abnormal leftie lobster-claw of a tennis arm which generates an extraordinarily  heavy topspun weight of shot  on both sides and one will realise how good
Federer's backhand is. Sampras never had a Nadal or anyone nearly as good to contend with.

However my appreciation and choice of Federer as the GOAT does not preclude the fact that I supported Andy when the two played at Wimbledon.  

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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #172 on: July 25, 2012, 06:22 PM »
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Here's a look at Federer's overall results on clay. Turned pro in 1998 but his first title came on indoors (carpet) in Milan in 2001 where he beat Julien Boutter in the final.

2001: No title

2002: title: 1 (Hamburg Masters)
Beat Safin

2003: title 1 (Munich 250)
Beat Nieminen

2004: 2 titles (Gstaad 250, Hamburg)
Beat Igor in Gstaad
Beat Coria in Hamburg

2005: 1 title (Hamburg)
Beat Gasquet

2006: No title

2007: 1 title (Hamburg)
Beat Nadal

2008: 1 title (Estoril – 250)
Beat Davydenko

2009: 2 (RG, Madrid Masters)
Beat Soderling at RG
Beat Nadal (Nadal was far too tired after beating Nole in a 3 grueling sets in the semi)

2010: No title

2011: No title

2012: 1 (Madrid Masters – blue clay - both Nadal and Nole bombed out early due to sudden surface change)
Beat Berydych

So to sum it up, Federer has won 10 clay titles in total in 13 years – 1 RG, 4 Hamburg Masters, 2 Madrid Masters and 3 250 events (Munich, Gstaad and Estoril). That’s 13% of his total title (10/75).

He beat Safin, Nieminen, Igor, Coria, Gasquet, Nadal, Davydenko and Soderling to win those titles.

Didn’t win anything in 2001, 2006, 2010 and 2011.

And now here's his overall resutls on each surface:

34 outdoor hard titles out of 75 – 45%
20 indoors hard/carpet titles out of 75 – 27%
11 grass titles out of 75 – 15%
10 clay titles out of 75 – 13%

Interesting to see that despite ATP having at least 30% of the total tournaments on clay, Federer has won so far only 10 of them or 13% of his total titles. He went back again and again to Hamburg to win one more clay title as it seemed like the only clay title he was almost guaranteed to win due to its damp and muggy nature.

The 2 Madrid (notorious itself due to bizarre history of the tournament) Masters are the notorious ones as we've seen due to blue clay this year when both Nadal and Nole, the true clay contenders bombing out early. And the previous one, both Nadal and Nole were in a dogfight in the semi and by the time Nadal made the final, he was all out of gas. Thanks to Federer easy draw he remained fresh.

So this is just to show Federer's overall results but in particular his results on clay.
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Emma Jean
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #173 on: July 25, 2012, 07:04 PM »
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Indirachap, and once again, you've decided to completely overlook my points and go on with the ones you are most comfortable with.

I hope you get that I am not discussing whether Federer is the GOAT or not. I don't believe in GOAT simply because it's impossible to compare era against era given all the variables. It’s very stupid to even suggest that but if you want to come off like one then please be my guest.

Anyway, I am discussing what made Federer so successful in this era and these are my findings:

 - Lack of competition (only a baby Nadal and an average consistent player like Roddick until 2007)
 - Homogenization of surfaces (tailor made for players and neutral to all baseliners)
 - New racquet technology (vast improvement from the previous era)

I’ve already stated that the reason why Sampras wasn’t as successful on clay as he was on other surfaces is because:

 - Stiff competition (flooded with clay-courters who would only peak around that time)
 - Very different speeds from surface to surface; therefore, a lot of adjustments throughout the year
 - Least favourite surface as he didn’t grow up in Europe therefore didn’t have the luxury to be at least somewhat familiar with it
 - Not too keen on clay (Wimbledon and grass were more important followed by US hard and then AO hard season)

If you read Paul Annacone comments from time to time you’d notice the different approaches both had toward the same game.

Quote
You quote Federer's head to head with Nadal but in reality their H2Hs in all matches is no that lopsided. I suspect that you play tennis with a two-fisted-backhand and thus consequently would not quite appreciate the inequality of the situation - especially on clay - add to that a relentless opponent with an abnormal leftie lobster-claw of a tennis arm which generates an extraordinarily  heavy topspun weight of shot  on both sides and one will realize how good Federer's backhand is. Sampras never had a Nadal or anyone nearly as good to contend with.

This makes no sense, frankly. If we are to adjust Nadal’s game to the point that he isn't able to use as much topspin and on top of that, make him a right hander just so a single hander like Federer could deal with him, then why the f**k should he be called the GOAT? If Federer is indeed the GOAT, as you claim, then he should have been able to find his ability to deal with one single adversity he was thrown into and this was pretty much his testament to his greatness, but he simply failed to do that. Forget tough competition, different surface speeds, and racquet technology. So stop making those stupid excuses and learn to deal with the fact that, another champion from the same era totally owns Roger Federer. And this is why Rafael Nadal is the greater player of the two and will remain so.  Federer is not even the greatest player of his era let alone greatest of all time.

And your take on Sampras “Sampras never had a Nadal or anyone nearly as good to contend with” is frankly a load of crap. Sampras dealt with a lot more adversities anyone can think of be his poor physical condition, loss of coach in the middle of his career, all the legends in the world or much tougher competition, different surface speeds to name a few etc. He would have handled Nadal pretty well as Nadal has problems dealing with big servers anyway. Not to mention, Sampras is probably mentally the strongest player ever lived.
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indirachap
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #174 on: July 25, 2012, 11:31 PM »
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Here's a look at Federer's overall results on clay. Turned pro in 1998 but his first title came on indoors (carpet) in Milan in 2001 where he beat Julien Boutter in the final.

2001: No title

2002: title: 1 (Hamburg Masters)
Beat Safin

2003: title 1 (Munich 250)
Beat Nieminen

2004: 2 titles (Gstaad 250, Hamburg)
Beat Igor in Gstaad
Beat Coria in Hamburg

2005: 1 title (Hamburg)
Beat Gasquet

2006: No title

2007: 1 title (Hamburg)
Beat Nadal

2008: 1 title (Estoril – 250)
Beat Davydenko

2009: 2 (RG, Madrid Masters)
Beat Soderling at RG
Beat Nadal (Nadal was far too tired after beating Nole in a 3 grueling sets in the semi)

2010: No title

2011: No title

2012: 1 (Madrid Masters – blue clay - both Nadal and Nole bombed out early due to sudden surface change)
Beat Berydych

So to sum it up, Federer has won 10 clay titles in total in 13 years – 1 RG, 4 Hamburg Masters, 2 Madrid Masters and 3 250 events (Munich, Gstaad and Estoril). That’s 13% of his total title (10/75).

He beat Safin, Nieminen, Igor, Coria, Gasquet, Nadal, Davydenko and Soderling to win those titles.

Didn’t win anything in 2001, 2006, 2010 and 2011.

And now here's his overall resutls on each surface:

34 outdoor hard titles out of 75 – 45%
20 indoors hard/carpet titles out of 75 – 27%
11 grass titles out of 75 – 15%
10 clay titles out of 75 – 13%

Interesting to see that despite ATP having at least 30% of the total tournaments on clay, Federer has won so far only 10 of them or 13% of his total titles. He went back again and again to Hamburg to win one more clay title as it seemed like the only clay title he was almost guaranteed to win due to its damp and muggy nature.

The 2 Madrid (notorious itself due to bizarre history of the tournament) Masters are the notorious ones as we've seen due to blue clay this year when both Nadal and Nole, the true clay contenders bombing out early. And the previous one, both Nadal and Nole were in a dogfight in the semi and by the time Nadal made the final, he was all out of gas. Thanks to Federer easy draw he remained fresh.

So this is just to show Federer's overall results but in particular his results on clay.
Indirachap, and once again, you've decided to completely overlook my points and go on with the ones you are most comfortable with.

I hope you get that I am not discussing whether Federer is the GOAT or not. I don't believe in GOAT simply because it's impossible to compare era against era given all the variables. It’s very stupid to even suggest that but if you want to come off like one then please be my guest.

Anyway, I am discussing what made Federer so successful in this era and these are my findings:

 - Lack of competition (only a baby Nadal and an average consistent player like Roddick until 2007)
 - Homogenization of surfaces (tailor made for players and neutral to all baseliners)
 - New racquet technology (vast improvement from the previous era)

I’ve already stated that the reason why Sampras wasn’t as successful on clay as he was on other surfaces is because:

 - Stiff competition (flooded with clay-courters who would only peak around that time)
 - Very different speeds from surface to surface; therefore, a lot of adjustments throughout the year
 - Least favourite surface as he didn’t grow up in Europe therefore didn’t have the luxury to be at least somewhat familiar with it
 - Not too keen on clay (Wimbledon and grass were more important followed by US hard and then AO hard season)

If you read Paul Annacone comments from time to time you’d notice the different approaches both had toward the same game.

This makes no sense, frankly. If we are to adjust Nadal’s game to the point that he isn't able to use as much topspin and on top of that, make him a right hander just so a single hander like Federer could deal with him, then why the f**k should he be called the GOAT? If Federer is indeed the GOAT, as you claim, then he should have been able to find his ability to deal with one single adversity he was thrown into and this was pretty much his testament to his greatness, but he simply failed to do that. Forget tough competition, different surface speeds, and racquet technology. So stop making those stupid excuses and learn to deal with the fact that, another champion from the same era totally owns Roger Federer. And this is why Rafael Nadal is the greater player of the two and will remain so.  Federer is not even the greatest player of his era let alone greatest of all time.

And your take on Sampras “Sampras never had a Nadal or anyone nearly as good to contend with” is frankly a load of crap. Sampras dealt with a lot more adversities anyone can think of be his poor physical condition, loss of coach in the middle of his career, all the legends in the world or much tougher competition, different surface speeds to name a few etc. He would have handled Nadal pretty well as Nadal has problems dealing with big servers anyway. Not to mention, Sampras is probably mentally the strongest player ever lived.

Phew!!   Think
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #175 on: July 25, 2012, 11:37 PM »
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Clay is the final test of a tennis player - the ultimate examination of the robustness of your strokes. And Hamburg, where he won four of those titles, is seen as possibly the fastest clay surface on the tour, with a low bounce.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #176 on: July 25, 2012, 11:42 PM »
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"Federer is not even the greatest player of his era let alone greatest of all time."

Great quote. Try telling that to Federer and his army though.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #177 on: July 25, 2012, 11:58 PM »
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Oh my gosh.  I know we aren't Fed fans on here - why would we be?  However, I can't sit and take the nonsense that this guy is just not something else.  For me - it's like we're all ignoring the fact that an elephant is walking through the room. Nuts.  This guy has seen pretenders come and go, yet still reigns supreme.  I'm not a fan, but I'm not about to belittle his achievements.  To do so would just be inherently stupid.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #178 on: July 26, 2012, 12:09 AM »
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Oh my gosh.  I know we aren't Fed fans on here - why would we be?  However, I can't sit and take the nonsense that this guy is just not something else.  For me - it's like we're all ignoring the fact that an elephant is walking through the room. Nuts.  This guy has seen pretenders come and go, yet still reigns supreme.  I'm not a fan, but I'm not about to belittle his achievements.  To do so would just be inherently stupid.

No, what is inherently stupid is when people like you make someone something he is clearly not. There's no doubt that he is one of the greatest players along with Laver, Sampras, Borg, Nadal etc. and no one's denying that, but he did benefit a lot from the weak competition and all those stats that I have posted so far, they all indicate that. Try making your posts a bit more constructive than that.

But why don't you clarify first as to why you think Andy has a chip in his shoulder? Yes, you are not a fan Federer and I am not sure what that means since you never miss a chance to defend him and then talk about Andy's chip but anyway, do tell me, what kind of chip does Andy have on his shoulder?

And as to Indrachap, he/she has yet to say anything about Andy. All she's doing is defending Federer basically everywhere and from day one. Nothing wrong with that but where's the mention of Andy in of this? If she's a fan, I am sure she'd at least take part in some of the conversations that are taking place in the Andy Talk section? Right.
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Re: Federer is not the GOAT. Discuss. « Reply #179 on: July 26, 2012, 12:15 AM »
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"Federer is not even the greatest player of his era let alone greatest of all time."

Great quote. Try telling that to Federer and his army though.

Of course he is not the best player of his time. It's Rafael Nadal who beat him in 2008 RG, Wimbledon, 2009 AO, 2011 RG finals and then finally once again at 2012 AO semi. That's three different surfaces right there and not just clay. There's a reason why Federer cried like a girl at 2009 AO. Also, take a look at all the H2Hs Nadal vs all the other players and Federer vs all the other players. It's Nadal who's even leading Federer in the H2H. The difference between the two players is bit too clear and I am not seeing any of the Nadal fans claiming Nadal as the GOAT.
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