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Is Federer the GOAT?

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TCK
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A Miserable Little Pile Of BULL ****!

Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 11:16 PM »
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I'm generally not accustomed to giving anyone anyone the title of GOAT unless there's absolutely nothing that they haven't done that someone else has (reasonably speaking).  Federer can't be the GOAT unless he wins a Grand Slam, at the very least.  If you've got one person who's done something great and another person who's done another thing great comparing their achievements just seems silly to me.
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top_spin
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 11:27 PM »
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Not a GOAT unless you've won a GS on each surface imo. Laver owns Fed Smile

Edit: and Agassi!
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Clydey
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 11:28 PM »
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For me:

Fed: No
Woods: Not yet, and he's far and away my favourite golfer ever. He might end up being greater than Nicklaus, but as of right now Nicklaus' achievements outstrip his by some distance.
Hendry: Probably. I'd say so, but I was a fan so I might be biased.
Taylor: Definitely.
Phelps: Could well be, but I don't know enough about swimming to split him and Mark Spitz. Spitz won 7 golds with 7 world records at the 1972 games, which is close enough that you need to look at other things such as schedule, quality of opposition etc.
Armstrong: He's got a good case, but he was in an unbelievably strong team that had several top 20 riders in it helping him and that does make a huge difference. Having watched them both at their peak I personally think Indurain was a stronger individual rider in a weaker team. I wasn't fortunate enough to watch Eddy Merckx in his day.
Schumacher: Hard to say, so hard to judge in different cars. Fangio and Senna were also pretty special.



Woods is a no no. He has to go some way to match Jack Nicklaus, no?

Hendry is a yes. Looking at it at objectively, he has not only achieved more than any other player, but he has been the most innovative. O'Sullivan shouldn't even be in the conversation yet. Davis is the only real contender, and his achievments have long since been eclipsed by Hendry.

As for Phelps, it's clearly him. Spitz's records went a long time ago. That's the problem with athletics. Records are constantly being beaten, leaving past athletes out of the conversation.
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Torin
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 11:29 PM »
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I'm generally not accustomed to giving anyone anyone the title of GOAT unless there's absolutely nothing that they haven't done that someone else has (reasonably speaking).  Federer can't be the GOAT unless he wins a Grand Slam, at the very least.  If you've got one person who's done something great and another person who's done another thing great comparing their achievements just seems silly to me.

That's going a little far even for me, but I do see where you're coming from. In Federer's case someone else has beaten him on pretty much every significant score.

Federer hasn't won the most slams
He hasn't won the most tournaments
He hasn't won the grand slam
He's never won the french open
He's never won Olympic singles gold
He hasn't been ranked number 1 for the most weeks
He hasn't lost the fewest matches in a calendar year
And to my mind he hasn't done it against particularly strong opposition.

It's very hard to make a logical case for him as GOAT to my mind.
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Neil
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 11:32 PM »
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Woods is a no no. He has to go some way to match Jack Nicklaus, no?

Hendry is a yes. Looking at it at objectively, he has not only achieved more than any other player, but he has been the most innovative. O'Sullivan shouldn't even be in the conversation yet. Davis is the only real contender, and his achievments have long since been eclipsed by Hendry.

As for Phelps, it's clearly him. Spitz's records went a long time ago. That's the problem with athletics. Records are constantly being beaten, leaving past athletes out of the conversation.


Woods is behind in majors, but he's still young remember. He's done just about everything you could want up til now. And he's got much more opposition than Nicklaus had anyway, that's for sure.
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Clydey
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 11:33 PM »
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That's going a little far even for me, but I do see where you're coming from. In Federer's case someone else has beaten him on pretty much every significant score.

Federer hasn't won the most slams
He hasn't won the most tournaments
He hasn't won the grand slam
He's never won the french open
He's never won Olympic singles gold
He hasn't been ranked number 1 for the most weeks
He hasn't lost the fewest matches in a calendar year
And to my mind he hasn't done it against particularly strong opposition.

It's very hard to make a logical case for him as GOAT to my mind.


I agree. I used to think of him as the GOAT, but when you break it down he really isn't. The lack of competition is the biggest factor, in my eyes. When he dominated, it was Roddick, Hewitt, Ferrero, Safin etc. Those players simply don't compare to today's competition.
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Clydey
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 11:35 PM »
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Woods is behind in majors, but he's still young remember. He's done just about everything you could want up til now. And he's got much more opposition than Nicklaus had anyway, that's for sure.


He has to surpass him, though. We can't assume he will. In what way did Nicklaus have lesser competition? I'm no golf expert, but I'm not convinced by that assertion.
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Torin
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 11:35 PM »
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Woods is a no no. He has to go some way to match Jack Nicklaus, no?

Yes. He's on 14 majors and Nicklaus is on 18. And Nicklaus has a whole heap more 2nds and 3rds too.


Hendry is a yes. Looking at it at objectively, he has not only achieved more than any other player, but he has been the most innovative. O'Sullivan shouldn't even be in the conversation yet. Davis is the only real contender, and his achievments have long since been eclipsed by Hendry.

He's achieved more than any other player since Joe Davis, and in those days it was a relatively minor sport. Ray Reardon's the other name worth a mention, but I don't know much about him other than that he won 6 World Championships in the 1970s.

And yes, it's only in the last year or so that O'Sullivan's moved ahead of Mark Williams and John Higgins in terms of success, so he shouldn't be anywhere near the conversation.
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 11:44 PM »
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He's achieved more than any other player since Joe Davis, and in those days it was a relatively minor sport. Ray Reardon's the other name worth a mention, but I don't know much about him other than that he won 6 World Championships in the 1970s.

And yes, it's only in the last year or so that O'Sullivan's moved ahead of Mark Williams and John Higgins in terms of success, so he shouldn't be anywhere near the conversation.



The sport has changed a lot since then, though. Looking at his wiki page, it says he pretty much got snooker started. Hard to imagine he had that much competition, then. I assume the tour was drastically different too.
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #24 on: February 02, 2009, 11:47 PM »
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As for Phelps, it's clearly him. Spitz's records went a long time ago. That's the problem with athletics. Records are constantly being beaten, leaving past athletes out of the conversation.

This is something that always troubles me. Is it really about times? Because if it is, then Jesse Owens was no greater than a good club runner today (20.7 WR for the 200m?).

I think there's more to it than that - modern nutrition, training methods etc mean that the top athletes today are undoubtedly faster and probably better than the top athletes of 20+ years ago, but that doesn't make them greater. To measure greatness you have to take into account environment, and that means comparing athletes against their contemporaries.

How fast would Emil Zatopek have been with modern supplements, altitude training and an oxygen tent? We'll never know, but comparing his times with those of modern distance runners is clearly not a level playing field.
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 11:50 PM »
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The sport has changed a lot since then, though. Looking at his wiki page, it says he pretty much got snooker started. Hard to imagine he had that much competition, then. I assume the tour was drastically different too.
I do agree, I have Hendry down as the greatest ever. But I get that pissed off by Federer fans saying that he's the greatest ever that I'm reluctant to do the same thing to my sporting idol.
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Clydey
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 11:55 PM »
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This is something that always troubles me. Is it really about times? Because if it is, then Jesse Owens was no greater than a good club runner today (20.7 WR for the 200m?).

I think there's more to it than that - modern nutrition, training methods etc mean that the top athletes today are undoubtedly faster and probably better than the top athletes of 20+ years ago, but that doesn't make them greater. To measure greatness you have to take into account environment, and that means comparing athletes against their contemporaries.

How fast would Emil Zatopek have been with modern supplements, altitude training and an oxygen tent? We'll never know, but comparing his times with those of modern distance runners is clearly not a level playing field.



It's useful in a tiebreak situation. I mean, Phelps has achieved more than all of them and has made a mockery of their times. All things being equal, though, you would have to consider times. I don't buy into the idea that supplements etc have enough of an impact that the effect is almost like steroids. If they made that much of a difference, they would be illegal. The only major difference is the swimsuits, that undoubtedly make a big difference. It still doesn't cut seconds of a swimmer's time, though.

Ray Reardon was the player who looked a bit like Dracula.

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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 12:00 AM »
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Just wanted to say, this is getting way to complicated for me now.
 Am I just being dumb here. confused
      To me no one can be the GOAT.  Sport evolves, equipment improves,  training methods change.  Rules change. Money has become a huge incentive as well as a detriment in sport.  The bar is raised  constantly.
We can't compare because nothing stays the same. U can't be the  GOAT if someone already  is. You can't be better.  I don't think you can use the term. You can be the greatest in your time, but eventually it will be surpassed.  
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 12:15 AM »
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It's useful in a tiebreak situation. I mean, Phelps has achieved more than all of them and has made a mockery of their times. All things being equal, though, you would have to consider times. I don't buy into the idea that supplements etc have enough of an impact that the effect is almost like steroids. If they made that much of a difference, they would be illegal. The only major difference is the swimsuits, that undoubtedly make a big difference. It still doesn't cut seconds of a swimmer's time, though.


Legal supplements and modern training methods do make a huge difference - they do everything from increasing muscle mass to aiding recovery time to increasing the red blood cell count. Swimsuits also make a difference, as you say. Big enough to account for the difference in times? I've no idea, as I say I don't follow swimming that closely.


Ray Reardon was the player who looked a bit like Dracula.


Yes, he did. I still don't know much about his accomplishments on the baize though.  lol
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Torin
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Is Federer the GOAT? « Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 12:19 AM »
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How long till Mark splits this and moves it to a more appropriate forum?

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