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Poll
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Murray in 2. - 7 (18.9%)
Murray in 3. - 21 (56.8%)
Raonic in 2. - 6 (16.2%)
Raonic in 3. - 3 (8.1%)
Comedy 5th option. - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 37

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BNP Paribas Open 2014 R4: Andy Murray vs Milos Raonic
Elly
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Quote from: murray mad on March 11, 2014, 11:40 am
Yesterday was a blip, he still managed to win and to be fair to andy it is easy to get complacent when you had such a easy start against someone who is less known, he know Roanic's threat and knows he can't be subdued, .it all depends on who wants it the most.     Murray in 3 Smile
Can't agree that it was a blip, chuck.  Andy's struggling a bit to get back on form - and I think that's to be expected and allowed.  Really hope he can stamp some authority on Raonic for his own self belief.
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Cmongoose
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Andy is still very brittle mentally,
The health is back (sic) and he is playing pain free but its the mentality that still needs to put the hours in.
To me it was staggering that a 20 year debutante could sustain any rally (it felt) above 6 shots and more often than not come out the winner,
Against Andy Murray no less!
As soon as he is under pressure he starts to buckle & become ragged but here's the thing... even if he loses this whole process helps him improve so it is best that he is put under this pressure sooner rather than later really.
[ Last edit by Cmongoose March 11, 2014, 11:52 am ] IP Logged
Elly
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Quote from: Cmongoose on March 11, 2014, 11:48 am
Andy is still mentally very brittle,
The health is back and he is playing pain free but its the mentality that still needs to put the hours in.
To me it was staggering that a 20 year debutante could sustain any rally (it felt) above 6 shots and more often than not come out the winner,
Against Andy Murray no less!
As soon as he is under pressure he starts to buckle but here's the thing... even if he loses this whole process helps him improve so it is best that he is put under this pressure sooner rather than later really.

I don't get that it was staggering that 20 a year old debutante gave Andy a hard time - Andy did that to a few players a long time ago.  Any player who has earned a place on the tour deserves respect - and no player is invincible - no matter the size of his or her ego!
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murray mad
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Quote from: Elly on March 11, 2014, 11:43 am
Can't agree that it was a blip, chuck.  Andy's struggling a bit to get back on form - and I think that's to be expected and allowed.  Really hope he can stamp some authority on Raonic for his own self belief.
I agree, he needs his confidence back, he has been rusty since injury but yesterday was just lacksydaisy lol. We will see. I feel a murray best is just around the corner Wink.
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Cmongoose
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Quote from: Elly on March 11, 2014, 11:54 am
I don't get that it was staggering that 20 a year old debutante gave Andy a hard time - Andy did that to a few players a long time ago.  Any player who has earned a place on the tour deserves respect - and no player is invincible - no matter the size of his or her ego!

No I mean that in longer rallies it was....okay, maybe not `staggering` but really every time they got into one, particularly over 9 shots he would invariably lose it.
Vesely has no right to approach Andy's powers of concentration and wouldn't if he was mentally more resilient.
Hit him off the court perhaps but not have the edge in longer plays.
I know Vesely is a clay court player of some note but still.
Clearly Andy is not mentally there yet and that was a telling sign.
Its sheer bloody mindedness that is getting him through a lot of these matches right now.
Which is fine i suppose.
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Elly
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Quote from: Cmongoose on March 11, 2014, 12:03 pm
No I mean that in longer rallies it was....okay, maybe not `staggering` but really every time they got into one, particularly over 9 shots he would invariably lose it.
Vesely has no right to approach Andy's powers of concentration and wouldn't if he was mentally more resilient.
Hit him off the court perhaps but not have the edge in longer plays.
I know Vesely is a clay court player of some note but still.
Clearly Andy is not mentally there yet and that was a telling sign.
Its sheer bloody mindedness that is getting him through a lot of these matches right now.
Which is fine i suppose.
I'm not following - Andy's opponent has every right to capitalise on his lack of concentration - that's something Andy has to get to grips with and not allow to happen. 
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Cmongoose
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Quote from: Elly on March 11, 2014, 12:07 pm
I'm not following - Andy's opponent has every right to capitalise on his lack of concentration - that's something Andy has to get to grips with and not allow to happen. 

Thats my point!
This conversation is feeling as laboured as one of Andy's matches of late.
I'm obviously not criticising Vesely! I am saying that Andy's lack of mental stamina was on show particularly when he played the longer rallies, allowing Vesely to capitalize.
I'm sorry but a 20 year old with little experience at this level shouldn't be winning these kinds of rallies against a master of these kinds of rallies.
A sign of mental brittleness.
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teejay1
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Take Andy out of the equation for a second. Is it really that surprising that a youngster, relatively new to the tour and therefore with nothing to lose either way, came out and had a go? I don't think it is, and I don't really care who the opponent was. Vesely was brimming with confidence because he's been successful as a junior, and you can see why.

I don't understand Cmongooses comment about Andy starting to buckle under pressure. Andy won, from being a set and a break down, and then 4-2 down in the third. That's pressure, real backs against the wall, staring at the glowing exit sign stuff. There was no buckling. In the last few games Andy raised his level considerably.

There is no issue with Andy's mentality. If that was the case he'd be out by now. It's just taking Andy a little time to rediscover his game after the back op. It's entirely to be expected, and even more so in conditions that don't really suit him.
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Elly
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Quote from: Cmongoose on March 11, 2014, 12:12 pm
I'm sorry but a 20 year old with little experience at this level shouldn't be winning these kinds of rallies against a master of these kinds of rallies

Well - I'm sorry too - but that's life, and I'm sure some Fed fans said the same when he was getting his ass whipped by a very young Andy.
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Elly
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Quote from: teejay1 on March 11, 2014, 12:18 pm
Take Andy out of the equation for a second. Is it really that surprising that a youngster, relatively new to the tour and therefore with nothing to lose either way, came out and had a go? I don't think it is, and I don't really care who the opponent was. Vesely was brimming with confidence because he's been successful as a junior, and you can see why.

I don't understand Cmongooses comment about Andy starting to buckle under pressure. Andy won, from being a set and a break down, and then 4-2 down in the third. That's pressure, real backs against the wall, staring at the glowing exit sign stuff. There was no buckling. In the last few games Andy raised his level considerably.

There is no issue with Andy's mentality. If that was the case he'd be out by now. It's just taking Andy a little time to rediscover his game after the back op. It's entirely to be expected, and even more so in conditions that don't really suit him.
If he were the type to buckle under pressure, he never, never would have won Wimbledon.
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Cmongoose
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Unsurprisingly I disagree.
He's been consistently falling back and coming back as a `fighter` for a while now.
He's often playing too defensively and is very ragged indeed.
Its only sheer determination and the occasional flow of good play that gets him out of the trouble he put himself in in the first place.
If he falls back yet again against a quality opponent he will be out.
End of.
He'll get there of course there's no need to worry but it looks like it will take a bit of time. That's all.
Probably the grasscourt season.
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teejay1
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Quote from: Elly on March 11, 2014, 12:23 pm
If he were the type to buckle under pressure, he never, never would have won Wimbledon.

Exactly, I couldn't agree more.
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Elly
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Quote from: Cmongoose on March 11, 2014, 12:25 pm
Unsurprisingly I disagree.
He's been consistently falling back and coming back as a `fighter` for a while now.
He's often playing too defensively and is very ragged indeed.
Its only sheer determination and the occasional flow of good play that gets him out of the trouble he put himself in in the first place.
If he falls back yet again against a quality opponent he will be out.
End of.
He'll get there of course there's no need to worry but it looks like it will take a bit of time. That's all.
Probably the grasscourt season.
I don't mind you disagreeing one bit.  It's nice to disagree and not hurl insults! hug
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Cmongoose
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Quote from: Elly on March 11, 2014, 12:23 pm
If he were the type to buckle under pressure, he never, never would have won Wimbledon.

I am not saying in general that he will buckle i am talking about this present situation only.
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Elly
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Quote from: Cmongoose on March 11, 2014, 12:26 pm
I am not saying in general that he will buckle i am talking about this present situation only.

I'm doubting this present situation will shape his future.
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