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Mark
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Holocaust v2.0 and in full colour.
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Elly
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Quote from: Mark on November 07, 2019, 07:32 pm
Holocaust v2.0 and in full colour.
Yep.  Looks that way.  Makes me think we have it really good - despite obvious challenges.
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boogers
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Quote from: Mark on November 07, 2019, 07:32 pm
Holocaust v2.0 and in full colour.

And completely ignored by almost everyone. It's horrific.
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Elly
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Quote from: boogers on November 07, 2019, 07:50 pm
And completely ignored by almost everyone. It's horrific.
Some things never change, sadly.
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Mark
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It makes me think about moral obligations.

Do I stop purchasing anything 'made by China'? That doesn't really seem feasible. Ok then but do I stop placing my savings (e.g. pension) into Global Equity Index funds because China represents a notable percentage? Maybe. That's something I've been pondering about.
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Elly
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Quote from: Mark on November 07, 2019, 09:34 pm
It makes me think about moral obligations.

Do I stop purchasing anything 'made by China'? That doesn't really seem feasible. But ok then, do I stop placing my savings (e.g. pension) into Global Equity Index funds because China represents a notable percentage? Maybe. That's something I've been pondering about.
Noble thoughts.  Will what you do make a difference?  I doubt it.  However - that may not be the point of your dilemma.
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laundry
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Pretty much the same position as a climate supporter. There's different levels of extreme you can go to to reduce your carbon footprint and ultimately whatever you do is a drop in the ocean that makes negligible difference.

And just like climate change the only way for actual change is with a multi-national highly pressurised and strict response to the issue whilst taking a severe global economic hit. The only real way then to actually try and make a difference is by campaigning and gathering public support in order to pressurize politicians - but this cause will probably be 1000 times harder even to push through than the global warming cause.
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Mark
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Quote from: Elly on November 07, 2019, 09:38 pm
However - that may not be the point of your dilemma.
Yeah, it's just personal comfort.

I've slept easy at night knowing that my core savings simply track global performance. No bets, no opinion and no human decision making. Ironically it's now that lack of discrimination that causes me tangible moral discomfort. Oh well.

I think the best hope for impact is for the likes of major investment management companies to create global index funds that specifically exclude China. In a similar way they came out with funds that only invest in companies that are environmentally responsible.  EDIT: Just saw laundry's post - snap.

By coincidence, I just spotted that Marco Rubio is expressing concern about this exact topic today.  So perhaps if pressure persists there is hope for these options.
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boogers
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I hope that happens - I've got a ton of investments in "ethical" and "green" funds, but AFAIK none of them avoid China.

Mind you, given China's slowing growth avoiding 'em might be good financial sense as well!
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Mark
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I just did some Googling and it's nice to see there are a couple of Emerging Market funds that specifically exclude China, even a MSCI index.

But we need global index funds doing this for there to be a real impact.
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blueberryhill
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Quote from: laundry on November 07, 2019, 09:48 pm
Pretty much the same position as a climate supporter. There's different levels of extreme you can go to to reduce your carbon footprint and ultimately whatever you do is a drop in the ocean that makes negligible difference.
I agree change has got to be political and global, but, at the end of the day, you live with your own conscience.
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althusser
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Very interesting discussion points above.

The moral obligations question is so hard. Here i have to give Trump a moment of credit for his - 'you think we're so innocent?' question. What kinds of violence are we (or certainly our governments) essentially supporting, being complicit with, or being damningly silent about.

We may rightly mock the far left, or alt right, but if we were really honest then we'd admit that they sometimes draw attention to inconvenient horrors, the histories we'd rather occlude. Underneath our self-righteous fuming we at some level may level know there are kernels of truth - which only makes us fume more.
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boogers
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Yes, that's a good point. The fact that everything is interconnected now makes it really hard. For example, you could try to be ethical by buying an electric car - but this is almost certainly using rare earth metals harvested from some really nasty places.
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moonglow
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It's difficult to avoid things "made in China".  I think it's up to the shops not to import them?  That might be best.
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Elly
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Quote from: boogers on November 08, 2019, 10:17 am
Yes, that's a good point. The fact that everything is interconnected now makes it really hard. For example, you could try to be ethical by buying an electric car - but this is almost certainly using rare earth metals harvested from some really nasty places.
I think it shows how far we have fallen, as a species.  We’re sort of ‘dirty’ no matter what we do.
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