MurraysWorld  >  Chit Chat  >  Scottish politics
Poll
 If the referendum were held now, how would you vote?
YES to independence
NO to independence
Don't know

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Scottish politics

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It is arguably unequal, but in your favor. Scotland receives £1800 per person more in public spending than the rest of the uk, subsidized by the south of England.

Unfortunately that appears to be incorrect. The economic consequences of independence make the worst case brexit projections look like a cakewalk.

How many times has the myth that England subsidises Scotland  been de-bunked - we more than pay our way and contribute.  If you feel this is not the case then why are you so keen that we don't go our own way?
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That's a difficult one - I have just always felt Scotland would be better placed being independent.  Brexit has compounded that opinion because we appear to morphing into a nation of racists which is appalling  - I want to live in a forward thinking, welcoming country that looks after the most vulnerable people in society and doesn't demonise them for being poor or sick.  I'm not saying the SNP,are perfect -  far from it but I truly believe right now they are the only party to have Scotlands interests at the heart of what they do.  Scottish Labour are in disarray and I will never understand the wave of Corbonyism from the young folks that want to stay in Europe -  he's an old Eurosceptic.  Scotland has a lot to offer the rest of the world - I personally feel we do not benefit from.being part of union which is so obviously unequal. 
Thanks. One concern I have with some independence supporters, not necessarily yourself, is that it becomes point of dogma. Scotland doing badly? Unions fault, let's get out. Scotland doing well? Just shows how much better we'd be outside the union! There don't appear to be any possible circumstances or events that could shake the faith. It seems too close to an actual faith.

I guess you could argue some unionists are just as dogmatic, probably so. But in answer to Fiverings question - I would not rule out EVER backing Scottish independence. I already support a high level of Scottish government of course. There would need to be a more credible economic  plan than currently or appears likely in near future. Would also need strong reasons to break a union that has many benefits - but a prolonged ukippish style uk government with little effective opposition or prospect of change could force me to rethink.
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Unfortunately that appears to be incorrect. The economic consequences of independence make the worst case brexit projections look like a cakewalk.
  And there is the nub. rUK probably stands to lose out much more than Scotland  if we become independent.  Which is the real reason for Yoon panic. Broad shoulders my arse. Wake up time for the decrepit and dysfunctional British state is long gone. Time to build a new constitution.
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How many times has the myth that England subsidises Scotland  been de-bunked - we more than pay our way and contribute.

It's never been debunked because it's true. Scotland ran a budget deficit of 8% in 2016/7. The rUK deficit was just 2%. Part of this is because tax income is down due to the decline of the North sea, and part is because public spending in Scotland is £1800 per person higher than in the rest of the UK.

If you actually read a "variety of material" you'd know this.

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If you feel this is not the case then why are you so keen that we don't go our own way?

Because we've been a union for hundreds of years. Pooling and sharing of resources is what we've always done, so I don't feel bitter about things. This is a contrast with the ENGLAND IS STEALING OUR OIL numpties who...
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  And there is the nub. rUK probably stands to lose out much more than Scotland  if we become independent.  Which is the real reason for Yoon panic. Broad shoulders my arse. Wake up time for the decrepit and dysfunctional British state is long gone. Time to build a new constitution.


Ahahaahha. That's some crazy shite. How is rUK going to lose out much more?
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Scotland already has self government in most key area and in recent years has legislated for virtually nothing of benefit to the Scottish people. I cannot see why anyone would vote for yet another tier of expensive incompetent government and the massive upheaval and legal bills independence would bring. It is a romantic pipe dream which we cannot afford and has had its day.Every politician right now should be concentrating 100 per cent on the economy or as a Polish lady said to me yesterday - jobs, housing and education for the next generation. I hardly think a sexist pair of shoes ought to be forefront in Nicola's mind right now. What a pile of self serving crap.
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^ Excellent post.  Who wants to be drawn into divisive shit with the all 'That's mine, not yours, you can't have it etc ad nauseam.  It's about time the whole world started working together to make a difference - not focusing on own agendas.  It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach that the UK continues to fight amongst themselves with no thought of a bigger picture.  Ignorance at its best.
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Scotland already has self government in most key area and in recent years has legislated for virtually nothing of benefit to the Scottish people. I cannot see why anyone would vote for yet another tier of expensive incompetent government and the massive upheaval and legal bills independence would bring. It is a romantic pipe dream which we cannot afford and has had its day.Every politician right now should be concentrating 100 per cent on the economy or as a Polish lady said to me yesterday - jobs, housing and education for the next generation.
.  Scots are much better off under Holyrood than they would be under direct WM control. Without the Scottish Govt there would be no New Forth crossing, no Borders Railway, no Scottish steel and no mitigation of anti-social tuition fees, prescription charges, bedroom tax, travel subsidy etc. And under independence we could be even better.  Best performing region in the UK outside the London/SE axis. We'd be voting for less government, not more.  No Westminster, no House of Lords, no expensive subsidy of ridiculous vanity projects like irrelevant aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines . Of course it's all about the economy, that's why we need to be in Europe and arguing our own corner, not tagged on as some reluctant afterthought to Londoncentric policies.
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I sometimes wonder, fiverings, do you actually read anything anything outside what indy supporters say? You do realise all those things are only possible because of the Union? Have you even looked at GERS?
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I sometimes wonder, fiverings, do you actually read anything anything outside what indy supporters say? You do realise all those things are only possible because of the Union? Have you even looked at GERS?
Yes. Rubbish. Yes. Any more stupid questions?
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doh

Would you care to substantiate your “rUK stands to lose out more” claim?
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Yes. Rubbish. Yes. Any more stupid questions?
Hey, calm down.
Why is it rubbish? Without talking historically what could have been, nor hypothetically what could be in, say, 50 years time, how do you think Scotland could afford what they currently spend if it were independent?
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Hey, calm down.
Why is it rubbish? Without talking historically what could have been, nor hypothetically what could be in, say, 50 years time, how do you think Scotland could afford what they currently spend if it were independent?
  It's rubbish because Scotland  is as good or better off resource-wise than most other independent European nations of similar size. Anyone who denies that is deluded. So we should be more than capable of paying our way and matching any investment programme.  Plus we get to set our own priorities.
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Who's been talking about the resources available to Scotland?

Scotland definitely is capable of paying it's way, and becoming a successful independent country. That doesn't however mean there wouldn't have to be extremely harsh spending cuts in the short and medium term.

GERS shows that Scotland does do almost as well as rUK on the revenue side. I think on the latest figures only 3 English regions do better. It's on the spending side where the problem (mostly) lies.
To give a stupid analogy: if someone were to give a successful country a few extra billion a year, and the country got used to that extra spending, then however successful the country is, suddenly removing that spending is going to be painful, and will require more taxes or less spending.

And this would definitely last for many many years. Generations. I think someone made a calculation that at the higher rate of growth hoped for by the indy white paper, we're talking around 100 years till they'd reach parity with rUK.

With regard to priorities, can you tell me one or two an independent Scotland would possibly look to pursue?
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Who's been talking about the resources available to Scotland?

Scotland definitely is capable of paying it's way, and becoming a successful independent country. That doesn't however mean there wouldn't have to be extremely harsh spending cuts in the short and medium term.

GERS shows that Scotland does do almost as well as rUK on the revenue side. I think on the latest figures only 3 English regions do better. It's on the spending side where the problem (mostly) lies.
To give a stupid analogy: if someone were to give a successful country a few extra billion a year, and the country got used to that extra spending, then however successful the country is, suddenly removing that spending is going to be painful, and will require more taxes or less spending.

And this would definitely last for many many years. Generations. I think someone made a calculation that at the higher rate of growth hoped for by the indy white paper, we're talking around 100 years till they'd reach parity with rUK.

With regard to priorities, can you tell me one or two an independent Scotland would possibly look to pursue?
    Resources equals capital equals collateral.  And spending is exactly where an independent Scotland could take very different priorities to the UK. We do not need to be contributing to post-imperial vanity and inappropriate defence investment for example.  We do need to review the allocation of funding for social care.  There is no doubt the UK's geopolitical standing would take a massive but long overdue correction, but I really think that is necessary for democracy to move forward in these islands.
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